Author Topic: PH differences in Water Software  (Read 2524 times)

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
PH differences in Water Software
« on: March 12, 2016, 11:26:44 PM »
I've been using Brunwater for a while now, I recently downloaded a free version of EZ Water. Using the same grain bill and same salt additions along with the same lactic addition, I am getting major differences in predicted PH.

Brunwater predicts 4.97, EZ Water predicts 5.43.

It's essentially 100% Maris Otter (plus a bunch of Flaked Oats, but didn't see this in either software).
I'm adding 2 grams of Gypsum to both the Strike and Sparge and 7 grams of CaCl to both as well.

This builds my water up to the ranges I'm looking for on this beer. Regarding the lactic, I planned on 2ml.

Why this big difference?

RPIScotty

  • Guest
PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2016, 12:10:52 AM »
They all differ slightly. Not sure why you get such a big Δ 

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2016, 12:11:55 AM »
Yeah, obviously the below 5 figure scares me a bit...any kind souls care to try to enter this into their copy of Brunwater to make sure I'm not losing my mind?

100% RO water, 8.5 pounds base malt (3L)
.50 grams/gallon Gypsum
1.75 grams/gallon CaCl
.42 ml/gal Lactic

I'm wondering if this matters, but Brunwater is suggesting I put 1.68 ml of acid in the mash and .31 ml in the sparge. I plan on putting all of it in my strike water. EZ water doesn't really differentiate this and I just have 2ml going in total.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 12:17:29 AM by flbrewer »

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2016, 12:17:49 AM »
Personally, I'd trust the estimate of Brunwater in a heartbeat.
Jon H.

trentm

  • Guest
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2016, 01:27:17 AM »
As with most software, Bru N Water is a "dumb" calculator and doesn't suggest that you add any acid in your mash.  It's your input that influences those conditions.  GIGO garbage in / garbage out.

Add the oats to your recipe as a base grain and check your water volumes.

1.75mg/G of Calcium Chloride is a bit in excess, did you mean .75 mg/G?

On tab 3, set the amount of acid to 0.  Check the mash pH on tab 4.  If it's too high then add small amounts of acid until you reach a reasonable pH, if it's too low either add some alkalinity, remove some of your water salts or leave it alone.

Posting a screen shot of tabs 2, 3 and 4 would help troubleshoot.

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2016, 01:47:46 AM »

As with most software, Bru N Water is a "dumb" calculator and doesn't suggest that you add any acid in your mash.  It's your input that influences those conditions.  GIGO garbage in / garbage out.

Add the oats to your recipe as a base grain and check your water volumes.

1.75mg/G of Calcium Chloride is a bit in excess, did you mean .75 mg/G?

On tab 3, set the amount of acid to 0.  Check the mash pH on tab 4.  If it's too high then add small amounts of acid until you reach a reasonable pH, if it's too low either add some alkalinity, remove some of your water salts or leave it alone.

Posting a screen shot of tabs 2, 3 and 4 would help troubleshoot.

How would I add oats?

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2016, 01:52:26 AM »


1.75mg/G of Calcium Chloride is a bit in excess, did you mean .75 mg/G?



I'm shooting for around 150ppm Calcium and 75ppm SO4. Again, Bru'n Water makes my additions look like it'll give me 200ppm Calcium and 75ppm SO4. I'll try to add some screen shots.

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2016, 01:57:25 AM »
Here is the Dropbox links to both files...any help is appreciated!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/owxpuiz7s4pl1fu/jrm111%40gmail.com42161_6.xlsx?dl=0
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 09:34:07 PM by flbrewer »

trentm

  • Guest
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2016, 02:33:12 AM »
150ppm Calcium is in excess and isn't necessary.

Adding calcium by raising Chloride and Sulfate levels over recommended ranges doesn't work so well.  You'll need to add the calcium by using lime thus increasing the alkalinity and having to neutralize the excess with acid.

If you insist you'll need to lower your Calcium Chloride to .75 gram/G and add Calcium Hydroxide (pickling lime) to about .45 gram/G at which point you'll need to neutralize the excess alkalinity by adding nearly .9 ml/gal of lactic acid (or use phosphoric).

That operation is fairly tricky but may just work.

The best beer would be made by simply adding .5 gram/gal of Calcium Sulfate and .75 grams/gal of Calcium Chloride.  Fooling around with lime and large amounts of acid is probably asking for trouble.


Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2016, 02:37:40 AM »

150ppm Calcium is in excess and isn't necessary.

Adding calcium by raising Chloride and Sulfate levels over recommended ranges doesn't work so well.  You'll need to add the calcium by using lime thus increasing the alkalinity and having to neutralize the excess with acid.

If you insist you'll need to lower your Calcium Chloride to .75 gram/G and add Calcium Hydroxide (pickling lime) to about .45 gram/G at which point you'll need to neutralize the excess alkalinity by adding nearly .9 ml/gal of lactic acid (or use phosphoric).

That operation is fairly tricky but may just work.

The best beer would be made by simply adding .5 gram/gal of Calcium Sulfate and .75 grams/gal of Calcium Chloride.  Fooling around with lime and large amounts of acid is probably asking for trouble.

Trent, FWIW, I'm following this recipe. The author and I had a discussion where he told me about his calcium and sodium figures he aims for in these beers. http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html?showComment=1457527681040&m=1#c7993918678950912221

Offline narvin

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2269
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2016, 03:21:38 AM »
Your calcium and lactic acid additions are not that extreme.  I really doubt your mash pH would be below 5.
Please do not reply if your[sic] an evil alien!
Thanks

trentm

  • Guest
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2016, 01:57:48 PM »
Trent, FWIW, I'm following this recipe. The author and I had a discussion where he told me about his calcium and sodium figures he aims for in these beers. http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html?showComment=1457527681040&m=1#c7993918678950912221

Ok, that makes sense, with that recipe and to match that water profile, with your volumes, using RO water with a target pH of 5.4, you'd need:

.48 grams/gal Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum)
.73 grams/gal Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts)
1.11 grams/gal Calcium Chloride
.15 grams/gal Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime)
.25 ml/gal Lactic Acid

You'll have to let me know the exact profile you're after if you don't have all of those water salts. FWIW you should enter the profile specified in the recipe as a custom profile in Bru N Water, that way it'll be easier to match.

Offline flbrewer

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2161
    • View Profile
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2016, 02:15:16 PM »
Trent,
Take a look at what I have in EZ Water...seems simple enough.

http://imgur.com/EslsLvV

trentm

  • Guest
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2016, 02:28:22 PM »
Limiting your salts to CaCl2, CaSO4 you would need

.99 grams/gal of Calcium Sulfate
1.11 grams/gal of Calcium Chloride

No acid would be needed according to Bru N Water.

Oats should probably also be entered in the EZ Water spreadsheet.

Guess I'm not having the pH mismatch problem when I enter the numbers.

trentm

  • Guest
Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2016, 02:34:26 PM »
I'm shooting for around 150ppm Calcium and 75ppm SO4. Again, Bru'n Water makes my additions look like it'll give me 200ppm Calcium and 75ppm SO4. I'll try to add some screen shots.

Didn't see this post but to get those numbers:

.51 grams/gal of Calcium Sulfate
1.18 grams/gal of Calcium Chloride

No acid needed.  Your calcium would then be at 115ppm which you could boost with the Lime/Acid additions.