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Author Topic: PH differences in Water Software  (Read 5685 times)

Online denny

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2016, 10:10:43 am »
I've been using Brunwater for a while now, I recently downloaded a free version of EZ Water. Using the same grain bill and same salt additions along with the same lactic addition, I am getting major differences in predicted PH.

Brunwater predicts 4.97, EZ Water predicts 5.43.

It's essentially 100% Maris Otter (plus a bunch of Flaked Oats, but didn't see this in either software).
I'm adding 2 grams of Gypsum to both the Strike and Sparge and 7 grams of CaCl to both as well.

This builds my water up to the ranges I'm looking for on this beer. Regarding the lactic, I planned on 2ml.

Why this big difference?

Because EZ Water sucks
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline flbrewer

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2016, 10:41:10 am »
Who the hell knows! I do know my wacky PH meter read 5.99 for mash ph...no way that's correct. I did try and avoid grain in my sample. Used a muslin cloth but it was still pretty murky w all the flaked oats.

narvin

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2016, 12:28:46 pm »
I didn't have time to load up Bru'n water on my PC but this is a calculator I also trust, and it predicts a pH of around 5.3.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=JXP7XCX

narvin

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2016, 12:38:36 pm »
So, when I open the BrunWater spreadsheet on your dropbox it shows the predicted mash pH of 5.22.  Not sure where you got 4.97?

Offline mchrispen

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2016, 01:37:27 pm »
> Your calcium would then be at 115ppm which you could boost with the Lime/Acid additions.

In my opinion, using lime to increase calcium, and then using acid to lower pH is not a good idea. You should never use a base addition and acid addition together in the MLT. Use the one necessary to achieve the target pH. Intentionally getting your Ca over 100 ppm seems excessive as well. No need to try to match RA or bicarbonate levels in a water profile.

Mash pH is the first priority, Ca targets fall below that in priority. Again, just my opinion...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 06:07:22 pm by mchrispen »
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2016, 01:46:04 pm »
> Your calcium would then be at 115ppm which you could boost with the Lime/Acid additions.
[/size]
[/size]In my opinion, using lime to increase calcium, and then using acid to lower pH is not a good idea. You should never use a base addition and acid addition together in the MLT. Use the one necessary to achieve the target pH. Intentionally getting your Ca over 100 ppm seems excessive as well. No need to try to match RA or bicarbonate levels in a water profile.

[/size]Mash pH is the first priority, Ca targets fall below that in priority. Again, just my opinion...



+1 to all of this.
Jon H.

trentm

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2016, 01:46:59 pm »
You should never use a base addition and acid addition together in the MLT.

Why?  That ephemeral question.  I don't agree or disagree and have done both to my strike water with no adverse side effects...

Offline mchrispen

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2016, 02:02:50 pm »
Why add additional -ions that are not needed? If you add +0.2 pH units of alkalinity with lime, you will necessarily increase the amount of lactic or phosphoric needed to control the pH and offset that alkalinity to strike a reasonable mash pH (with most reasonable grists). I fall into the less is more camp with mineral additions.


My priority for full flavor extraction in malt is based on pH. While Ca helps to stabilize enzymes, Martin has shown that minimal additional Ca is sufficient for lager beer extract. I have stopped using the general 50 ppm recommendation and pretty much ignore Ca unless it is 0 or excessive. Usually I am targeting enough sulfate and chloride that the Ca is adequate from my gypsum and CaCl additions, and usually somewhere between 30 and 80 ppm. So I target sulfate and chloride as my second priority after mash pH - and I often use a touch of Epsom to get part of that sulfate and to get some magnesium as a boost for yeast health. I have not needed to use lime in anything but a couple of very dark porters, and then just a touch without an acid addition.


Again - my opinion or philosophy over the past several years exploring water chemistry in beer, based on a lot of Martin's advice and feedback.
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narvin

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2016, 02:13:51 pm »
You should never use a base addition and acid addition together in the MLT.

Why?  That ephemeral question.  I don't agree or disagree and have done both to my strike water with no adverse side effects...

In my experience, I agree with this because 1) alkalinity is generally bad, unless you're balancing some serious dark malts, and 2) the more extreme my water modifications, the less I like the results.

trentm

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2016, 02:20:04 pm »
Adding extra ions from the acid never really seemed to be big problem especially with small adjustments.  Now I'd agree with you on very large adjustments but then you'd be using a different acid like hydrochloric or sulfuric.

Is requesting a large amount of calcium (150ppm) good or bad, well it depends, I've advised the OP against it in previous posts but if he insists then that's certainly one way to achieve it.

Offline flbrewer

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2016, 03:34:47 pm »
So, when I open the BrunWater spreadsheet on your dropbox it shows the predicted mash pH of 5.22.  Not sure where you got 4.97?

I updated the Dropbox upload...I didn't include the acid addition previously. Fixed now.

Offline mchrispen

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PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2016, 06:25:58 pm »
@flbrewer - my general thoughts on EZWater is that it is accurate only so much in that you can customize the DI pH of the malts that you add, which requires a good deal of additional work on your part. It can be extremely accurate if you are willing to do test mashes and exercise your pH meter skills for each malt batch.


Bru'n Water is the closest tool I have used, with reliability over my last 25-35 batches. When it disagrees with my measurements, either my meter has been out of calibration or I messed up my grist or water additions. I am not saying dead-on perfect, but usually within 0.05 pH units, occasionally to 0.1 pH units.


I think Brewer's Friend is the closest to BW in estimates if you truly need to explore an alternative.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 05:26:37 pm by mchrispen »
Matt Chrispen
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narvin

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2016, 04:39:12 pm »
So, when I open the BrunWater spreadsheet on your dropbox it shows the predicted mash pH of 5.22.  Not sure where you got 4.97?

I updated the Dropbox upload...I didn't include the acid addition previously. Fixed now.

Ah, that makes sense.  It would have been perfect without the acid

Offline flbrewer

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2016, 04:56:26 pm »

So, when I open the BrunWater spreadsheet on your dropbox it shows the predicted mash pH of 5.22.  Not sure where you got 4.97?

I updated the Dropbox upload...I didn't include the acid addition previously. Fixed now.

Ah, that makes sense.  It would have been perfect without the acid
dammit!

trentm

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Re: PH differences in Water Software
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2016, 05:43:16 pm »

So, when I open the BrunWater spreadsheet on your dropbox it shows the predicted mash pH of 5.22.  Not sure where you got 4.97?

I updated the Dropbox upload...I didn't include the acid addition previously. Fixed now.

Ah, that makes sense.  It would have been perfect without the acid
dammit!

OMG!  Isn't that what I've been trying to communicate all along! ;)