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Author Topic: When "hot" breweries get stale  (Read 6853 times)

Offline fmader

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2016, 10:23:36 am »
I know from some contacts that their original recipe has changed drastically, and most of those changes since they lost their head brewer. I was always led to believe that he had gone to or started Thirsty Dog in Akron. I never fact checked that, but I did go to gradeschool with him, and 12 Dogs of Christmas is an excellent Holiday beer. Sorry to get so off track

Yeah. I feel that their traditional beers have changed too. Thirsty Dog makes nice beers. My wife loves 12 Dogs. I don't necessarily care for Christmas beers.
Frank

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2016, 10:37:47 am »
I'm sorry to hear this about Great Lakes. There was a time when I though GL was one of the most underrated breweries in the country. They're the reason I started brewing Dort lager. Stuff happens I guess.
Jon H.

Offline fmader

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2016, 10:57:45 am »
I'm sorry to hear this about Great Lakes. There was a time when I though GL was one of the most underrated breweries in the country. They're the reason I started brewing Dort lager. Stuff happens I guess.

I wouldn't say that their beer is bad. It's just that I feel that their focus has changed. "Eddy Fitz" is still a world class porter in my opinion, and it's tough to be a Burning River even though I feel that it's changed. Gearing this back towards the OP, their focus has become "innovation." It seems like they release at least one new distributed beer a year. A few years ago, they release a few new ones.... The Wright's Pils, Rye of the Tiger RyePA, Ohio City Stout, Alberta Clipper raspberry porter, Alchemy Hour IIPA (switched to Chillwave after a year), and High Striker Single Belgian are all relatively new. These are ones that I can think of. That's a lot of new beers for a relatively short time. Conways, Black Out Stout, Nosferatu, Xmas Ale, and Lake Erie Monsters are also seasonals, but I do believe that they've been around for awhile. If you go to the brewery, they usually have 4 small batches on tap that are brewery exclusives.

As the market grows and new breweries pop up, staple breweries are expanding, and, I think, start missing their craft. I'm not saying that Great Lakes is hurting. They are the reason why craft beer is growing in NE Ohio. People who don't know about a whole lot about craft beers will ask "Hey! Do you have any Great Lakes on tap?" The bartender will say yes. It doesn't matter what the beer is. This consumer does not now what style beer he's drinking. He just knows that he's drinking Great Lakes lol. If I owned a small bar in my area, I would for sure have GL on tab.
Frank

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2016, 11:01:52 am »
I'm sorry to hear this about Great Lakes. There was a time when I though GL was one of the most underrated breweries in the country. They're the reason I started brewing Dort lager. Stuff happens I guess.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that at the larger craft breweries the head brewer shouldn't be irreplaceable.  They ought to have their recipes and process down so that they can keep brewing their standard offerings without losing quality or changing flavor regardless of the head brewer.

When you get to the one-offs, the seasonals, etc. I think that's where the individuality of the head brewer would be more noticeable.  But if there's only one guy who knows how to make Great Lakes standard beers, that's problematic.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2016, 11:02:42 am »
I'm sorry to hear this about Great Lakes. There was a time when I though GL was one of the most underrated breweries in the country. They're the reason I started brewing Dort lager. Stuff happens I guess.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that at the larger craft breweries the head brewer shouldn't be irreplaceable.  They ought to have their recipes and process down so that they can keep brewing their standard offerings without losing quality or changing flavor regardless of the head brewer.

When you get to the one-offs, the seasonals, etc. I think that's where the individuality of the head brewer would be more noticeable.  But if there's only one guy who knows how to make Great Lakes standard beers, that's problematic.


That was my thought, too.
Jon H.

Offline 69franx

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2016, 11:05:55 am »
Joe, I fully agree. Unfortunately, the reality is that when losing head brewers, a lot of breweries see slight or nor so slight changes in the end result of their brews. Who knows why if recipes stay the same? Not the same level of familiarity through fermentation, unnoticed change in ingredient make up? It seems to happen to the best of them from what I read and hear. Most of the time though, I don't pick up on it due to my desire to try lost sof different things. Talking about Great Lakes, I really have not had a single one of their beers since I moved away from Cleveland 4.5 years ago, as an example.
Frank L.
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Offline PrettyBeard

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2016, 11:12:07 am »
I guess I'm not really sure what the "hot" breweries around here are, other then Surly.  Their bomber releases seem to only be getting hotter.  Fortunately, out in the suburbs where I live, I can just ask the local liquor store manager to hold a couple bottles for me.  Other then that, the old hands, Schell's and Summit are still cranking out quality beers.  Summit's unchained and union series seem to be doing well, though they aren't always in styles I care to chase down.  Meanwhile, Schell's Noble Star line has been so successful that they are opening up a new taproom and brewhouse just for them (and Firebrick is still every bit as good as it was a decade ago).

What else do we have?  Fulton, I guess.  I haven't been much a fan of their beers, though the imperial red last year was tasty.  The rest I don't really follow since they seem intent on mostly just putting more PA/IPA on shelves (Bent Paddle, Indeed, Lucid), or are just better at the tap room (Fair State, Boom Island, Tin Whiskers).  Then there are places like Lift Bridge that still seem to be on the rise.

Mostly though I think the most interesting local beers are coming out of the breweries that don't bottle.  Places like Fitger's, Hammerheart, Forager, Townhall, and Dangerous Man.

Offline dilluh98

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2016, 11:31:05 am »
Mostly though I think the most interesting local beers are coming out of the breweries that don't bottle.  Places like Fitger's, Hammerheart, Forager, Townhall, and Dangerous Man.

This is true in Austin as well. 512 Brewing and Live Oak Brewing don't bottle but make some damn fine beer. You just have to find the right bars to enjoy it in (or pay too much money for bad growler fills  :P ). I don't know if this is generally true but the non-bottlers around here tend to stick to a core of 3-4 that never change and put out a couple of seasonals each year and that's it.

I moved away from MN almost 15 years ago and man was the beer scene different than what you describe (and what I've heard from friends still there). Summit Extra Pale Ale was my gateway into craft beer and I'm happy for it.  :D

Offline udubdawg

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2016, 12:52:20 pm »
One really stood out to me here: AleSmith hasn't lost a damn thing IMO. Amazing beers, but maybe that's just me. (No. It isn't)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2016, 12:53:55 pm »
No, it isn't just you. They haven't dropped off in the slightest. Great brewery, top to bottom.
Jon H.

Offline fmader

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2016, 12:55:25 pm »
I love Alesmith... They are just becoming more readily available in these parts. The robust Porter was kissed by Jesus!
Frank

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2016, 04:37:03 pm »
One really stood out to me here: AleSmith hasn't lost a damn thing IMO. Amazing beers, but maybe that's just me. (No. It isn't)
At NHC last year Alesmith was stellar. Modern Times was good. Went out to Apline and was underwhelmed, beer was good, but I could not taste the hype.
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RPIScotty

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2016, 07:26:19 pm »

One really stood out to me here: AleSmith hasn't lost a damn thing IMO. Amazing beers, but maybe that's just me. (No. It isn't)
At NHC last year Alesmith was stellar. Modern Times was good. Went out to Apline and was underwhelmed, beer was good, but I could not taste the hype.

I had a Duet a few weeks ago and was not impressed, especially given what I had heard about Alpine.

Offline skyler

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2016, 08:42:35 pm »
One really stood out to me here: AleSmith hasn't lost a damn thing IMO. Amazing beers, but maybe that's just me. (No. It isn't)

I actually always felt like they were over-hyped, and then I haven't heard anyone mention them in a long time and I haven't seen a new release of theirs on the shelves in probably two years. I feel like Green Flash, Alpine, and Stone get so much buzz up here (Portland, OR) that I assumed it wasn't so much a distance thing, but a reduction of buzz. Maybe they're focusing on the local market more - which would explain it.

To be clear, my original posting wasn't about not liking older breweries, quite the contrary. I miss pale ales, balanced red ales, porters, and stouts on nitro (every other style is on nitro now in bars except for stout!). I am sick of IPA's with added flavors. If I never drink another $11 "farmhouse ale" again, it will be too soon. In fact, 95% of what I brew or buy is standard to-style beer, and I sometimes miss the beers that got dropped from my local shelves and taps when breweries have "freshened up" their brand (RIP BridgePort ESB and Sierra Nevada Porter). I just didn't understand how/why. Now I think you guys have brought up some points.

1. Head brewers leave (I never thought this would make much of a difference in larger breweries, but apparently it does).
2. Distribution/Marketing/Etc means that I may not see/hear about a beer, because someone else does (may be the case with AleSmith)
3. Small business capacity issues and willingness to remain in a sustainable niche market (if it pays to make Old Rasputin all day every day, why would North Coast do anything else?)
4. Expansion-related issues limit experimentation.
5. Corporations buy breweries and ruin them (Red Hook, Pyramid, BridgePort, Mendocino) - but maybe the most recent round of buy-outs will be better-handled (Ballast Point, Lagunitas, Elysian, 10 Barrels, Cigar City)

Offline udubdawg

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Re: When "hot" breweries get stale
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2016, 10:15:34 pm »
Ugh, the hype word...

Too often this just involves (over)doing what is popular. I think not participating in that ridiculousness is different than going stale.

Had a guy visit my basement a while back, mostly complimentary but just couldn't understand why I didn't want to oak age several of my beers. And why wasn't I doing "advanced" (his word) stuff with wild yeasts?? ...Tour over, ya know?

Post on HBT couple weeks back said everything was underwhelming and he was just mixing all his beers with bourbon, which was much better. Mkay.

I guess I'm saying the hype trains have historically included too many like those two guys. I appreciate subtlety. I appreciate clean beer, lack of batch variability, and freshness. If I had a brewery, and lost some previous "hype" over some wax dipped "rare" monstrosity, I'd say Good Riddance... Maybe then I could make what I fricking want.

/rant

Cheers--
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