Author Topic: Here's a recipe, make a water profile  (Read 794 times)

trentm

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Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« on: March 16, 2016, 07:33:03 PM »
Here's a 5.5 gallon recipe for a simple ale:

10 lbs German Pilsner

1 oz Tettnanger 4.5AA @ 60
1 oz Tettnanger 4.5AA @ 10

Single Infusion Mash @ 153F for 60min.

Wyeast 1056 or equivalent.

Assume Distilled or Deionized water and a target mash pH of 5.4, make a water profile to influence the resulting beer and describe how you believe it will affect the resulting beer.  Any acid needed would be phosphoric.  Once everyone has their predictions in place each person will brew the beer and send a sample to everyone else who participates...

Replace the numbers and the prediction with your own:

Calcium - 50ppm
Magnesium - 0ppm
Sodium - 0ppm
Chloride - 90ppm
Sulfate - 0ppm

Prediction - Expect smooth and subdued hop flavor with a certain fullness in the mouthfeel.

Just kidding about the actual brewing.  Still looking for the experiment where two beers are brewed, one with 100ppm of chloride and one with 100ppm of sulfate, both with the corresponding calcium amounts to see if tasters can distinguish them.

Offline narcout

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 08:08:16 PM »
Assuming 4.7 gallons of strike water (distilled), 3.7 gallons of sparge water (distilled), pre-boil volume of 7.4 gallons, post-boil volume of 6 gallons, and 5.5 gallons into fermentor (which is my actual system):

Added to strike water only: 2.8 grams gypsum, 2.8 grams calcium chloride, .35 grams canning salt, 7 ml of 10% phosphoric acid

Overall finished water profile, taking into account boil-off volume of 1.4 gallons:

63 ppm calcium
5 ppm sodium
59 ppm sulfate
76 ppm chloride

Estimated mash pH = 5.4

That's probably how I would brew the first iteration.  Sulfate and chloride levels could be adjusted on later batches if necessary (maybe experiment with dosing glasses of the first batch with various amounts of gypsum and/or calcium chloride to see what changes; something I have never tried but keep meaning to).
It's too close to home
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trentm

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 08:11:13 PM »
Excellent, please also predict the results of how your profile will influence the resulting beer (i.e. what are your intentions with the profile?).

Offline Stevie

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 08:25:56 PM »
He brings up a good point. Some of the minerals are easily adjusted post brew to see how they affect a beer. I know I have added gypsum to beers when I felt they fell flat. While it isn't 100% the same as brewing two batches with different water, it's close enough. Some argue that two batches aren't reliable enough as it is.

trentm

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 08:33:51 PM »
Yea, but the point is to predict how your profile will affect the beer before it actually affects the beer. ;)

trentm

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 08:40:14 PM »
I guess stating the intent of your profile would be another way of putting it.  Building water on purpose should be filled with intent, one would think.

Offline narcout

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 09:35:59 PM »
Calcium

63 ppm is what results from hitting the sulfate and chloride targets when starting from distilled water and also gets the mash pH reasonably close to the desired target without requiring a large phosphoric acid addition; it doesn't seem too high or low to me to require any further adjustment - enough to precipitate oxalate in the mash and to aid in yeast flocculation

Sulfate

I tend to keep sulfate on the low side unless brewing something hoppy in which case I will boost to 150-200 ppm; I have not personally experimented with sulfate levels higher than that, though I see 300 ppm mentioned a lot and will give it a shot sometime

Chloride

I also tend to keep it on the low to medium end; this is probably me being influenced by Gordon Strong's Brewing Better Beer; playing around with higher chloride levels is something I could experiment with more

Sodium

for years I have been brewing with no added sodium but recently tried dosing a glass of beer with table salt, and I felt like a small addition was nice; I have no idea whether 5 ppm provides a noticeable difference from 0 ppm, but it seems like a good starting point (rather go too light than too heavy)

Magnesium

I currently do not add; as I posted in another thread this morning, Palmer indicates in Waterthat 12 Plato wort already contains approximately 100 ppm; I don't know that another 5 or 10 ppm addition would make a difference; I could fully be wrong about this

Bicarbonate

I don't see the point of adding any alkalinity here; I already need a bit of phosphoric acid to hit the target mash pH of 5.4

Phosphoric Acid

added only to hit your target mash pH of 5.4; Bru'n Water predicts 5.47 without the acid addition, and I personally wouldn't be opposed to skipping it

Prediction: the hops would be noticeable without standing out too much, and the finish would be round without being too dry or malty. 

Maybe it would be a better beer with a softer finish?
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone

trentm

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 09:47:21 PM »
Wow, you've done your homework, would be interesting to compare the end result.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 11:22:02 PM »
I will say that you get a crisp and round bitterness from adding CaCl2 to RO water for a Bo-Pils.

You get a dry and lingering bitterness if you get the SO4 up around 90 ppm for a German Pils.

I have never brewed with the same of both, it would be a good test.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 11:37:20 PM »
I was mildly surprised to see that Matt B's Pivo clone recipe in BYO showed only a CaCl2 addition to RO water. I'd have assumed a little or more sulfate too, but the results are hard to argue with. Gonna brew it to the letter soon.
Jon H.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 01:05:51 AM »
I know you said you were kidding about the actual brewing, but if you did I think the best test would include an un-adjusted distilled water profile (adding only H2PO4 to keep mash pH in the same range) as a control. It's hard to say what the added salts did unless you compare them to something without the addition.
Eric B.

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trentm

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 01:56:35 AM »
It seems there's 4 beers that would somehow need tested probably in separate tests:

Water would need to be treated to like 100ppm.

1.) Just CaCl2
2.) Just CaSO4
3.) Both CaCl2 and CaSO4  (50ppm split?)
4.) Neither

I don't currently have the resources to do the test.

I just made the OP to try and get folks to think about a water profile they would like to apply to this recipe and what their intended effect was.  Apparently not much interest or not many folks actually sit down and do this type of thing.

Offline 69franx

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 02:09:15 AM »
I like the thought process behind this thread. I did not post my ideas  because I don't brew many beers with 100% German Pilsner malt and American Ale yeast, sorry just not there yet with my brewing. I am still watching though
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In the works: Hopefully brewing 10 gallons of Pilsner tomorrow for a family reunion in July, then back to IPA and  a barleywine to age

Offline erockrph

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Re: Here's a recipe, make a water profile
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2016, 06:42:25 PM »
It seems there's 4 beers that would somehow need tested probably in separate tests:

Water would need to be treated to like 100ppm.

1.) Just CaCl2
2.) Just CaSO4
3.) Both CaCl2 and CaSO4  (50ppm split?)
4.) Neither

I don't currently have the resources to do the test.

I just made the OP to try and get folks to think about a water profile they would like to apply to this recipe and what their intended effect was.  Apparently not much interest or not many folks actually sit down and do this type of thing.
It is an interesting thought experiment, but it's not typically how I go about recipe design. I generally start with an idea, then build my recipe (and water salts are part of the recipe) based on my goal. That doesn't look like a recipe I'd typically design, so I didn't have a lot of thought on what I'd do with the water profile.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer