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Author Topic: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!  (Read 6661 times)

Offline Indy574

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 03:30:57 pm »
Awesome review. I started out without bagging and then switched to bagging for two reasons:
1) I was getting a lot of hop particles in my fermenter and was worried about the "grassy taste"
2) I saw a hop spider on a forum and decided to make one.  I guess it was fun diy brew project. 

I have considered going back to throwing and going because cleaning the bag is a PIA and I want to try some hop stand techniques. Also with having the hops in the bag your pulling them out after flameout, at least I am.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 04:13:39 pm »
My understanding is that IBU estimates are for the fresh wort so its not surprising that the IBUs is the finished beer are substantially less.
That is not my understanding. Can you point me to any reference to that? I am willing to read and learn.

My own experience was that Tinseth is the most accurate on beer samples.

 Yeast selection can have a big influence. My samples used ones that were close.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/yeast-strains-ibus/
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 04:19:51 pm by hopfenundmalz »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2016, 04:18:28 pm »
My understanding is that IBU estimates are for the fresh wort so its not surprising that the IBUs is the finished beer are substantially less.
That is not my understanding. Can you point me to any reference to that? I am willing to read and learn.

My own experience was that Tinseth is the most accurate on beer samples. Yeast selection can have a big influence.

I tend to be a Tinseth believer kind of guy myself.  HOWEVER -- and this is a really BIG "HOWEVER"........



Perhaps not the best analogy.  But my point is that instead of trying to determine the exact number of IBUs for a given beer, realize that all the IBU formulae in the universe are all wrong when compared with laboratory results, and anyway, taste perception is still everything and might be totally different from either one.  Aha!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 04:20:52 pm by dmtaylor »
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Offline charles1968

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2016, 04:24:22 pm »
The data that caught my eye was the lab report margin of error +/- 1 so if the lower reading was 1 higher and the high reading 1 lower, the two would be the same. If the margin of error means anything then you have to admit they could very well be the same.


Yes good point. However they've used the word variance (incorrectly) to mean error, so you have to wonder whether they got the math right.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2016, 04:26:59 pm »

My understanding is that IBU estimates are for the fresh wort so its not surprising that the IBUs is the finished beer are substantially less.
That is not my understanding. Can you point me to any reference to that? I am willing to read and learn.

My own experience was that Tinseth is the most accurate on beer samples. Yeast selection can have a big influence.

I tend to be a Tinseth believer kind of guy myself.  HOWEVER -- and this is a really BIG "HOWEVER"........



Perhaps not the best analogy.  But my point is that instead of trying to determine the exact number of IBUs for a given beer, realize that all the IBU formulae in the universe are all wrong when compared with laboratory results, and anyway, taste perception is still everything and might be totally different from either one.  Aha!
I agree that one should pick a formula and stick with it. That way as a brewer you can push up or down bitterness based on some reference (your past results and the past bitterness estimates). 

It's a bit off topic for this thread, but, the main place that breaks down is when trying to clone another beer based on interpreting quoted bitterness values.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2016, 04:30:02 pm »
It's a bit off topic for this thread, but, the main place that breaks down is when trying to clone another beer based on interpreting quoted bitterness values.

Yup, exactamundo.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2016, 04:33:27 pm »
My understanding is that IBU estimates are for the fresh wort so its not surprising that the IBUs is the finished beer are substantially less.
That is not my understanding. Can you point me to any reference to that? I am willing to read and learn.

My own experience was that Tinseth is the most accurate on beer samples.

 Yeast selection can have a big influence. My samples used ones that were close.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/yeast-strains-ibus/
My understanding may not be correct.  I don't see anything reliable to point too with a quick Google search.


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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2016, 04:36:58 pm »
It's a bit off topic for this thread, but, the main place that breaks down is when trying to clone another beer based on interpreting quoted bitterness values.

Yup, exactamundo.


Yep. And even assuming the IBU values that breweries post are fairly accurate (not a believer that's always the case), there's the impossibility of trying to duplicate their IBUs on vastly different equipment with often much lower utilization, not knowing a brewery's level of whirlpool hopping, differences in thermal mass of whirlpool, etc. That's where the wheels often come off. It's a crap shoot but if you have a decent palate you can get in the neighborhood.
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Offline charles1968

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2016, 04:49:40 pm »
I've also read that an IBU difference of 6 or under is imperceptible.

Interesting.  I've heard the IBU perceptibility packet is 4 IBUs.  I hadn't heard 6.  I have no idea what my source was though.

I can't remember my source either but I've tracked down what might be the origin, at the link below. Not sure i trust it as there nothing cited to back it up.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=twkRFn75VAEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=ibu+bitterness+discriminate&source=bl&ots=apcNGAYMI6&sig=B_s2fJ5N2pM7lNEqNFwv8oPFb6U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIlcmi6tLLAhUBERQKHQRpD9UQ6AEIJDAD#v=onepage&q=ibu%20bitterness%20discriminate&f=false

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2016, 04:52:52 pm »
The data that caught my eye was the lab report margin of error +/- 1 so if the lower reading was 1 higher and the high reading 1 lower, the two would be the same. If the margin of error means anything then you have to admit they could very well be the same.


Yes good point. However they've used the word variance (incorrectly) to mean error, so you have to wonder whether they got the math right.
The +/- 1 figure I am talking about appears to be from the lab that measured the IBUs. So the lab is saying that the two samples are 2 IBUs apart but could be 4 IBUs apart or zero IBUs apart.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2016, 04:55:58 pm »
Did anyone else find that hop turd picture disturbing?

Offline euge

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2016, 04:57:38 pm »
 ;D I'm not a scientist I'm an artist dammit!
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Offline charles1968

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2016, 05:10:36 pm »
The data that caught my eye was the lab report margin of error +/- 1 so if the lower reading was 1 higher and the high reading 1 lower, the two would be the same. If the margin of error means anything then you have to admit they could very well be the same.


Yes good point. However they've used the word variance (incorrectly) to mean error, so you have to wonder whether they got the math right.
The +/- 1 figure I am talking about appears to be from the lab that measured the IBUs. So the lab is saying that the two samples are 2 IBUs apart but could be 4 IBUs apart or zero IBUs apart.

Yes, got that, but they used the wrong word for error. Variance is never negative - it's a measure of spread. So the report doesn't inspire much confidence.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2016, 07:39:01 pm »
The data that caught my eye was the lab report margin of error +/- 1 so if the lower reading was 1 higher and the high reading 1 lower, the two would be the same. If the margin of error means anything then you have to admit they could very well be the same.


Yes good point. However they've used the word variance (incorrectly) to mean error, so you have to wonder whether they got the math right.
The +/- 1 figure I am talking about appears to be from the lab that measured the IBUs. So the lab is saying that the two samples are 2 IBUs apart but could be 4 IBUs apart or zero IBUs apart.

Yes, got that, but they used the wrong word for error. Variance is never negative - it's a measure of spread. So the report doesn't inspire much confidence.
I'm tracking, but either way indicates the same end

Offline denny

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Re: Kettle Hops: Bagged vs. Loose | exBEERiment Results!
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2016, 09:33:19 am »
My understanding is that IBU estimates are for the fresh wort so its not surprising that the IBUs is the finished beer are substantially less.

I've never heard that before.  When I've had beers analyzed, they've always been almost exactly what was predicted in Promash using the Tinseth formula.
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