Author Topic: water help..  (Read 1099 times)

Offline houser31

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water help..
« on: March 22, 2016, 10:47:08 PM »
used brewers friend calculator on this grain bill and need to see if i need to make changes for it to turn out good...

base water is as follows

Ca 49.17
Mg 14.10
Na 44.80
CI 54.8
SO4 18.30
Alkalinity as CaCO3 155.83
PH 7.6

water additions according to calculator

4.00 g gypsum
3.50 g calcium chloride
4.00 g of baking soda
3.00 g chalk

this will bring my water to the following

Ca 93.9
Mg 5.8
Na 52.5
CI 75.0
SO4 68.3
HCO   57.022

grain bill

4lbs 9.5oz 2 row
3 lbs 3.0 oz 6 row
15.0 oz acid malt
15.oz cara 8

was wondering what i can expect when i brew this batch.. will it be hoppy, balanced, or malty..

thanks in advance

trentm

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Re: water help..
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2016, 11:31:59 PM »
Your base water isn't bad though you'll need some acid to neutralize the higher alkalinity.

I can't image that you're using that calculator properly or aren't communicating the entire water recipe as the numbers don't add up.

A couple of pointers:

1.) Eliminate the baking soda
2.) Eliminate the chalk
3.) Use phosphoric or lactic acid, if needed, in addition to the acidulated malt

To get a better answer:

1.) Tell us your volumes for strike water, sparge water and total batch volume.
2.) Clarify what "cara 8" means (what is lovibond of the caramel malt?)  Looking it up seems to be 6 Lovibond?

If you're more advanced diluting your base water with RO would help with the alkalinity and salt content of your base water.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 11:38:40 PM by trentm »

Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 12:01:37 AM »
Your base water isn't bad though you'll need some acid to neutralize the higher alkalinity.

I can't image that you're using that calculator properly or aren't communicating the entire water recipe as the numbers don't add up.  as far as i know ive entered all the info the way it instructed me to

A couple of pointers:

1.) Eliminate the baking soda
2.) Eliminate the chalk
3.) Use phosphoric or lactic acid, if needed, in addition to the acidulated malt

To get a better answer:

1.) Tell us your volumes for strike water, sparge water and total batch volume. total volume is 8.5 gallons    3.5 base water and 5 gallons distilled sparge water..
2.) Clarify what "cara 8" means (what is lovibond of the caramel malt?)  Looking it up seems to be 6 Lovibond? 6 lovibond is right

If you're more advanced diluting your base water with RO would help with the alkalinity and salt content of your base water.

trentm

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Re: water help..
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 12:29:58 AM »
Ok it's starting to add up now.

All you really need is about 4-5 oz. of acid malt and you'll make a good beer.  Discard all other water additions.

If you desire to add more Calcium you might consider adding 1g each of CaCl and CalSo4 to the mash and 1.5g of each to the sparge water or add it all at once if you making your water all at once.

The above should give you a mash pH in the 5.3-5.4 range.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 12:32:44 AM by trentm »

Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 12:52:28 AM »
i already have the ingredients mixed together so thats why im asking... the 15.oz acid malt is mixed in as well was wondering how i can fix that before brewing.... thats why all the water additions...

trentm

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Re: water help..
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 01:23:35 AM »
Given the additional information...

You'll need:

Mash (base water/tap water):
.5 grams of CaSO4
.6 grams of Pickling Lime (Ca(OH)2) (add directly to mash not to strike water)

Sparge (distilled water):
2 grams of CaSO4
.6 grams of CaCl

For a mash pH of 5.4
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 01:25:10 AM by trentm »

Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2016, 02:13:28 AM »
was wondering how you got this info... the Brewers friend calculator had me adding all that stuff...

getting a mash of 5.2... i appreciate the help also

Offline jmitchell3

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Re: water help..
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2016, 04:43:25 AM »
Houser,

Just do what trent says and you'll be ok for this batch. It sounds like the main issue is the 15oz of acid malt that got into your grist. Did brewers friend tell you to do that? If so probably a bad calculation.  I would recommend you take a look at ezwater, and when you get comfortable with that after a few batches, go have a look at bru'n water.  Both will likely be superior to brewers friend for water calcs.

In the future, i would recommend having your lhbs provide the acid malt separate from the rest of your grist so that you can measure and add only what the water spreadsheet indicates. Not much can be done after its mixed into your grist. 

Happy brewing!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

trentm

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Re: water help..
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2016, 02:20:05 PM »
was wondering how you got this info... the Brewers friend calculator had me adding all that stuff...

getting a mash of 5.2... i appreciate the help also

The calculator made you do it?

Garbage in and garbage out (GIGO).

Building and modifying water takes knowledge and practice.

The best way to start is to ask questions like you're doing but also peruse some of the online resources regarding water:

The HomeBrewTalk Science forum, pay attention to the advice given by A.J. Delange and Martin Brungard.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=4c703b0fa213ccdb822d5fbdae46a177&f=128

Bru N' Water Water knowledge page
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Water: A Comprehensive Guide For Brewers
http://www.amazon.com/Water-Comprehensive-Brewers-Brewing-Elements/dp/0937381993/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1458742174&sr=1-1&keywords=water+a+comprehensive+guide+for+brewers

John Palmer: How To Brew Chapter 15
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/what-kind-of-water-do-i-need

Kai Troester: Under Ingredient start with "How to read a water report"
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

Set aside all water calculators until you've read these materials.

Once you've read the materials and have a very basic understanding it's time to start playing with a water calculator.

Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2016, 04:24:01 PM »
Houser,

Just do what trent says and you'll be ok for this batch. It sounds like the main issue is the 15oz of acid malt that got into your grist. Did brewers friend tell you to do that? If so probably a bad calculation.  I would recommend you take a look at ezwater, and when you get comfortable with that after a few batches, go have a look at bru'n water.  Both will likely be superior to brewers friend for water calcs. ok i can do that, the acid was in a recipe i found so i had lhbs put in there... now i know lol

In the future, i would recommend having your lhbs provide the acid malt separate from the rest of your grist so that you can measure and add only what the water spreadsheet indicates. Not much can be done after its mixed into your grist. 

Happy brewing!

thank you jmitchell i need all the help i can get and want to learn as much as possible


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Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2016, 04:29:23 PM »


The calculator made you do it? no, i added stuff to get close to the profile i was looking for...

Garbage in and garbage out (GIGO).

Building and modifying water takes knowledge and practice.thats why in here asking question lol

The best way to start is to ask questions like you're doing but also peruse some of the online resources regarding water:

The HomeBrewTalk Science forum, pay attention to the advice given by A.J. Delange and Martin Brungard.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=4c703b0fa213ccdb822d5fbdae46a177&f=128ive read thru some of this post and gained some useful knowledge... actually ajdelange gave me the addition of baking soda to help neutralize the acid from the acid malt

Bru N' Water Water knowledge page
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Water: A Comprehensive Guide For Brewers
http://www.amazon.com/Water-Comprehensive-Brewers-Brewing-Elements/dp/0937381993/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1458742174&sr=1-1&keywords=water+a+comprehensive+guide+for+brewers

John Palmer: How To Brew Chapter 15
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/what-kind-of-water-do-i-need

Kai Troester: Under Ingredient start with "How to read a water report"
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com

Set aside all water calculators until you've read these materials.

Once you've read the materials and have a very basic understanding it's time to start playing with a water calculator.

thanks again for the information looks like i have reading to do

Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2016, 05:11:02 PM »
entered everything i could into ez water...

got a mash ph of 4.83

using the additions that trentm gave me...

"Effective Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm)"   -674

"Residua lAlkalinity" -742   
         
"ESTIMATED Room Temp Mash pH" 4.83   5.4 - 5.6 recommended range

resulting profile down below was all with in range and beer would be on the bitter side
         

trentm

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Re: water help..
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2016, 06:24:18 PM »
Change your Lime addition in EZWater to 7.5 grams to reach the "optimal pH".

Adding that much lime would most certainly be more detrimental than the acid malt.  Plus it's hard to get the lime evenly distributed in the mash even with stirring.

Best to add a smaller amount and measure (or at least ensure it doesn't shoot your calcium through the roof).  Also, the mash pH will tend to climb naturally.

Of course you could use Baking Soda or a combination of that and Lime but then you'd be adding sodium.

For extra credit, enter the same into Bru N Water and see what you get!

Offline houser31

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Re: water help..
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2016, 06:43:48 PM »
Bru'n Water                         
Water Adjustment Summary             comments            
                                                Ca    Mg     Na    SO4    Cl   Bicarbonate (ppm)
Existing Water Profile         49   14   45   18   55   191
Finished Water Profile         147   14   45   40   73   430
Recommended Ranges         50 to 150   0 to 30   0 to 150   0 to 350   0 to 100   as needed
                        
Mash Parameters                        
Batch Volume (gal)      5.37   Hardness (ppm as CaCO3)      426   RA (ppm as CaCO3)      243
Estimated Mash pH      5.3   Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3)      356   SO4/Cl Ratio      0.56
                        
Additions         Total Mash Water Vol (gal)      3.50   Total Sparge Water Vol (gal)      5.00
            
Mineral          (grams)         (grams)      
Gypsum (CaSO4)          0.5         2.0      
Epsom Salt (MgSO4)         0.0         0.0      
Canning Salt (NaCl)         0.0         0.0      
Baking Soda (NaHCO3)         0.0         Not Recommended      
Calcium Chloride (CaCl2)      0.5         3.3      
Chalk (CaCO3)                  0.0         Not Recommended       
Pickling Lime (Ca(OH)2)      1.9                  Not Recommended       

after adjusting the pickling lime this is what i got in brun water

trentm

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Re: water help..
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2016, 06:54:58 PM »
Can't tell from your post, you'd have to upload your spreadsheet...

Bru N Water is a little more tricky than EZWater.  The additions look reasonable though the calcium and sulfate in the finished profile may be a bit high. (Apologies they are fine, I was mis-aligning the columns while reading the post.)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 06:57:37 PM by trentm »