[udubdawg]

It would be interesting to see a breakdown. Ingredients for a 5 gallon batch (gross income to the store) and how many you would need to sell per month to break even. I'm not bored enough to do the math but I have a feeling that for most small town owner operated LHBSs its just a hobby that almost pays for itself, and the exit plan is to pocket a little when its time to sell out.

Define what you think of as a "small town".  I consider Eugene a small town, but we have 2 shops doing very well.

That's not a small town, the population is around 150, 000.

Wichita is more than twice that population and isn't supporting any stores "very well"

I gave up trying to raise interest. Wasn't getting any return there either.

[majorvices]

The end result? I learned how much I enjoy mashing. It's my favorite part of brewing, and I ended up sick of extract fast. IMO, better a rare brew day that you really enjoy than having lots of beer via extract brewing.

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

[HoosierBrew]

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

I agree. Nothing wrong with someone making extract beers, I made some pretty good ones. But the wort production is what makes me feel like I'm brewing.

[RPIScotty]

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

I agree. Nothing wrong with someone making extract beers, I made some pretty good ones. But the wort production is what makes me feel like I'm brewing.

To me, someone who enjoys math to a certain degree, extract brewing is like basic algebra (figuratively and literally) while all grain brewing is like calculus.

Extract brewing is an important step in my opinion (it's a shame that more people are bypassing it for AG) with regard to the mechanics and fundamentals of brewing. Much like the arc one takes in a technical education (algebra, pre calculus, calculus series, differential equations) all grain adds more complex components onto extract brewing.

[Philbrew]

My LHBS is Keller's in The Dalles, Oregon, (~16000 pop) and has 1 employee (the owner). A random guess is about $900 for rent, and maybe $300 for utilities etc. He probably does his own books. He drives to Portland about every other week for a supply run on heavy items, glass/grain. If we figured $1500 overhead...?

I buy 55lb sacks of Simpsons GP and Best Pils for under $70 if memory serves. Hops vary from $16-24 per pound. Yeast is $7. So on just ingredients it seems like he would need a pretty good pile of regular customers. A ball park estimate, I probably spend around $100 a month there. Sometimes nothing, sometimes its $500 to get out of the door.

I like Keller's too.  But the Dalles is 110 miles east west.  Fortunately the owner visits relatives in my area about every 3-4 months and will deliver brew supplies.

D'oh!

[klickitat jim]

My LHBS is Keller's in The Dalles, Oregon, (~16000 pop) and has 1 employee (the owner). A random guess is about $900 for rent, and maybe $300 for utilities etc. He probably does his own books. He drives to Portland about every other week for a supply run on heavy items, glass/grain. If we figured $1500 overhead...?

I buy 55lb sacks of Simpsons GP and Best Pils for under $70 if memory serves. Hops vary from $16-24 per pound. Yeast is $7. So on just ingredients it seems like he would need a pretty good pile of regular customers. A ball park estimate, I probably spend around $100 a month there. Sometimes nothing, sometimes its $500 to get out of the door.

I like Keller's too.  But the Dalles is 110 miles east west.  Fortunately the owner visits relatives in my area about every 3-4 months and will deliver brew supplies.

D'oh!

Rick? Or the old owner Larry?

[JJeffers09]

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

I agree. Nothing wrong with someone making extract beers, I made some pretty good ones. But the wort production is what makes me feel like I'm brewing.

To me, someone who enjoys math to a certain degree, extract brewing is like basic algebra (figuratively and literally) while all grain brewing is like calculus.

How do you figure the algebra vs calculus?  I would see the math as being algebra all the way... but curious what your reasoning is?

I definitely agree with the Extract Brewing being a good step, and I would recommend to anyone, in getting into the process.  It is part of that get out of it what you want to put into it.  As well as, an alternative option for taking a step back and not being out of the woods because you don't know or ever cared to know how to use it other than a quick boil starter.  I think Partial Mash can give you every beer you crave with reasonable to great results.

At the end of the day, brewing beer should make you happy, if it doesn't start getting paid to do it or give it up.

[RPIScotty]

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

I agree. Nothing wrong with someone making extract beers, I made some pretty good ones. But the wort production is what makes me feel like I'm brewing.

To me, someone who enjoys math to a certain degree, extract brewing is like basic algebra (figuratively and literally) while all grain brewing is like calculus.

How do you figure the algebra vs calculus?  I would see the math as being algebra all the way... but curious what your reasoning is?

I didn't mean math (like the mathematics of brewing) in the literal sense. I just meant that mathematics builds in complexity from algebra on up to, say differential equations. 

You can certainly open up a Diff EQ book right away and back track but it makes more sense to learn algebra and work your way up.

[Phil_M]

Diff EQ is one of the classes I'm a little scared of, I'm trying to take it ASAP. I need my Laplace/Fourier class ASAP so I can start making sense of things at work.

I wish that there was more data on exactly what is in each type of extract. Grain bill, mineral additions, mash temps, it's all stuff that had to be thought about when they produced the syrup. Why not provide us with that info? I'd consider brewing with extract more often if I I had that data. Might be helpful if I had a party coming up and needed to adapt an extract beer to mimic one of my all grain beers.

[Philbrew]

My LHBS is Keller's in The Dalles, Oregon, (~16000 pop) and has 1 employee (the owner). A random guess is about $900 for rent, and maybe $300 for utilities etc. He probably does his own books. He drives to Portland about every other week for a supply run on heavy items, glass/grain. If we figured $1500 overhead...?

I buy 55lb sacks of Simpsons GP and Best Pils for under $70 if memory serves. Hops vary from $16-24 per pound. Yeast is $7. So on just ingredients it seems like he would need a pretty good pile of regular customers. A ball park estimate, I probably spend around $100 a month there. Sometimes nothing, sometimes its $500 to get out of the door.

I like Keller's too.  But the Dalles is 110 miles east west.  Fortunately the owner visits relatives in my area about every 3-4 months and will deliver brew supplies.

D'oh!

Rick? Or the old owner Larry?

Rick.

[Joe Sr.]

The end result? I learned how much I enjoy mashing. It's my favorite part of brewing, and I ended up sick of extract fast. IMO, better a rare brew day that you really enjoy than having lots of beer via extract brewing.

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

We could argue about this endlessly (and I think we have).  I think the fermentation side is part of brewing and there's a whole lot going on there.

Tea and coffee are pretty damn easy to make.  Even good tea and coffee.  Beer, extract or all-grain, takes more effort.

[euge]

The end result? I learned how much I enjoy mashing. It's my favorite part of brewing, and I ended up sick of extract fast. IMO, better a rare brew day that you really enjoy than having lots of beer via extract brewing.

You don't brew a stew or a soup, you brew a tea or you brew coffee. Brewing, in my mind, is technically the act of mashing and rinsing the grains.

We could argue about this endlessly (and I think we have).  I think the fermentation side is part of brewing and there's a whole lot going on there.

Tea and coffee are pretty damn easy to make.  Even good tea and coffee.  Beer, extract or all-grain, takes more effort.

Was thinking this as I read down the thread. But, starting with extract is still basic "brewing". A shortcut of course.

[BrewBama]

Here we have at least one brewery that will sell grain and hops cheap. We have several beer stores and a health food store that moon light in homebrew supplies. No dedicated stores. None of the local options is compelling.

One of the local beer stores is promising a full scale LHBS. They used to have a decent selection of supplies. But, they sold off their stock of homebrew supplies a few months ago and don't plan to open the new stand alone LHBS until late summer. I don't like that lack of commitment to the market and customers. They are making me go elsewhere for 6+ months. I may not come back.

I agree. I started using Rebel Brewer exclusively. I pay $6.99 flat rate and I have actually had a ship notification within the same hour I pushed the button... delivered to my front door usually within 3 days. I like that convenience and their wide range of quality ingredients. I doubt I will ever use the LHBS when (if?) they ever open.  That date seems to change every time I speak to them.

Edit: Incidentally, I brewed 19 All Grain batches in '14, 20 in '15, and 6 so far in '16.  I prefer making my own beer and I try to keep the pipeline flowing.

[tommymorris]

Here we have at least one brewery that will sell grain and hops cheap. We have several beer stores and a health food store that moon light in homebrew supplies. No dedicated stores. None of the local options is compelling.

One of the local beer stores is promising a full scale LHBS. They used to have a decent selection of supplies. But, they sold off their stock of homebrew supplies a few months ago and don't plan to open the new stand alone LHBS until late summer. I don't like that lack of commitment to the market and customers. They are making me go elsewhere for 6+ months. I may not come back.

I agree. I started using Rebel Brewer. I pay 6.99 flat rate and I have actually had a ship notification within the same hour I pushed the button... delivered to my front door. I like that convenience and wide range of ingredients. I doubt I will ever use the LHBS when (if?) they ever open.

Actually, now they are saying fall at the earliest and they say may or may or may not be at Campus 805.

This is from the Rocket City Forum:

"Not to confuse the situation (although I know it will), we ARE still planning to move forward with the homebrew shop in some capacity. It may or may not be at Campus 805 and it's doubtful it will be any earlier than the fall. But we are still moving forward. That's about all I can say right now."

[chumley]

As much as I like to support my LHBS, I am not going to start brewing those crappy pre-packaged kits they advertise on TV (they aren't really a LHBS in the true sense, anyway, they are an Ace hardware store with a homebrew section.)

I do buy my bulk grains there, and sometimes yeast, and occasionally hops.  But their yeast selection is pretty limited, and I have a real hard time paying $2.50 an ounce for hops.