[denny]

Vorlauf effect part 1 showed a massive difference in clarity. That's a good enough reason for me as I don't usually fine (no space for fridge).

However I like the sound of a grain bag inside the mash tun if it achieves the same result as tediously trickling wort back in over a spoon while worrying about disturbing the grain bed.

Good reason to batch sparge.  Vorlauf takes me less than a minute.

[fmader]

I like my hot scotchies to be clear and grain free. I'll continue to vorlauf. 

[stpug]

Astringency is increased by decocting, but not enough to be objectionable.

My experience is that pre-lagering the astringency IS enough to be objectionable; post-lagering it is no longer objectionable (or even discernible for that matter).  One experience I had that illustrated how much astringency can be produced in decoction mashing was a traditional, triple-decocted bock I did - prior to this I would not have thought this was possible.

After kegging the bock and carbonating over a few days, I pulled a sample and was heart-broken at the astringent quality that kicked me in the face - so much so that I almost dumped the batch there and then because there was no way this one would ever clean up (or so I thought).  However, since I had plenty of empty kegs and batches that could precede this one, I decided to let it lager for many weeks (eight if I recall correctly) at ~38-40F.  After the lagering period, I pulled another sample and it was 180° turnaround! No astringency, and a classic traditional bock character.  After experiencing this turnaround it flashed me back to something Noonan wrote about in New Brewing Lager Beer which basically said exactly that: Lagering will precipitate the astringency in lagers as part of the process (or something like that).

[denny]

As I understand it, the polyphenols bond to proteins which drop out during lagering.

[charles1968]

Good reason to batch sparge.  Vorlauf takes me less than a minute.

It takes me a few minutes to pour back in gently but doesn't add any time as the tap is open anyway.

Yesterday I tried opening the tap fully after vorlaufing - sonething I've never tried before, having read somewhere that you need to drain a litre a minute - and got nice clear wort. That's a few more minutes shaved off the brew day.

[charles1968]

After kegging the bock and carbonating over a few days, I pulled a sample and was heart-broken at the astringent quality that kicked me in the face - so much so that I almost dumped the batch there and then because there was no way this one would ever clean up (or so I thought).  However, since I had plenty of empty kegs and batches that could precede this one, I decided to let it lager for many weeks (eight if I recall correctly) at ~38-40F.  After the lagering period, I pulled another sample and it was 180° turnaround! No astringency, and a classic traditional bock character. 

I had exactly this experience with a pale ale that tasted vile at first and then sat forgotten in the shed over winter. By March it was excellent.

[hopfenundmalz]

Astringency is increased by decocting, but not enough to be objectionable.

My experience is that pre-lagering the astringency IS enough to be objectionable; post-lagering it is no longer objectionable (or even discernible for that matter).  One experience I had that illustrated how much astringency can be produced in decoction mashing was a traditional, triple-decocted bock I did - prior to this I would not have thought this was possible.

After kegging the bock and carbonating over a few days, I pulled a sample and was heart-broken at the astringent quality that kicked me in the face - so much so that I almost dumped the batch there and then because there was no way this one would ever clean up (or so I thought).  However, since I had plenty of empty kegs and batches that could precede this one, I decided to let it lager for many weeks (eight if I recall correctly) at ~38-40F.  After the lagering period, I pulled another sample and it was 180° turnaround! No astringency, and a classic traditional bock character.  After experiencing this turnaround it flashed me back to something Noonan wrote about in New Brewing Lager Beer which basically said exactly that: Lagering will precipitate the astringency in lagers as part of the process (or something like that).

The tannins (polyphenols) dropping out was listed in the link I had above.

[dmtaylor]

My experience is that pre-lagering the astringency IS enough to be objectionable; post-lagering it is no longer objectionable (or even discernible for that matter).  One experience I had that illustrated how much astringency can be produced in decoction mashing was a traditional, triple-decocted bock I did - prior to this I would not have thought this was possible.

After kegging the bock and carbonating over a few days, I pulled a sample and was heart-broken at the astringent quality that kicked me in the face - so much so that I almost dumped the batch there and then because there was no way this one would ever clean up (or so I thought).  However, since I had plenty of empty kegs and batches that could precede this one, I decided to let it lager for many weeks (eight if I recall correctly) at ~38-40F.  After the lagering period, I pulled another sample and it was 180° turnaround! No astringency, and a classic traditional bock character.  After experiencing this turnaround it flashed me back to something Noonan wrote about in New Brewing Lager Beer which basically said exactly that: Lagering will precipitate the astringency in lagers as part of the process (or something like that).

This is very interesting, and I've seen the same thing in a parallel universe.......

Recently I discovered that either the carbonation or the corn syrup, or both, in soda pop do not agree very well with my digestive system.  Therefore, I decided to change over to a new soft drink of choice: ICED TEA.  I drink a ton of this stuff at work everyday, instead of the old standby of Coke, for those times of day when I can't drink beer or cider, etc.  So anyway...

Of course I brew my own iced tea.  I make a gallon at a time usually, then bring the whole jug to work.  Anyway... I have noticed that the first day or two after making it, it's got some extra zing to it, no doubt the tannins that are still in suspension.  However this very quickly falls away over about 36-48 hours, after which it is a very smooth and easy drinking beverage.  And I actually kind of like the fresh taste as well.  But I definitely do notice a difference after the tea has sat in the refrigerator to "lager" for a couple days.  This was not on purpose but discovered by accident.

My point is, tea has a lot of tannins, as many of us have heard.  And yes, after brewing and drinking dozens of gallons of the stuff over recent months, I definitely can tell that the tannins do mellow after "lagering" for a few days.  Fascinating that this correlates against lagering of, well, lager beer.  Awesome.

[rob_f]

I have a RIMS setup, so I pretty much vorluaf full-time. I still end up putting a nylon mesh bag over my tube filling the kettle since listening to Colin Kaminski at an AHA conference recommending "no grain husks in your kettle."  To me a brewday is a significant investment of time and effort. Doing little things like that to make sure it comes out right are fine with me, even if they are unnecesary.

[brewinhard]

As I understand it, the polyphenols bond to proteins which drop out during lagering.

Not fully in some cases.  At least what I and others (BJCP judges) have observed and experienced in some of my brews. This was prior to me making some equipment changes that allowed zero grain particles to enter my kettle.

[ynotbrusum]

I vorlauf, then pour through a double strainer to catch any lingering husks or grain, risking the dreaded (non-issue to me) HSA - but according to that German website, the HSA doesn't cause oxidation issues, rather it creates SRM issues and darker beers than are acceptable.  If it ain't one thing, it's another.....

[denny]

I vorlauf, then pour through a double strainer to catch any lingering husks or grain, risking the dreaded (non-issue to me) HSA - but according to that German website, the HSA doesn't cause oxidation issues, rather it creates SRM issues and darker beers than are acceptable.  If it ain't one thing, it's another.....

Yes, oxidation will darken beer color.