Author Topic: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe  (Read 3757 times)

Offline Philbrew

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Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« on: March 31, 2016, 05:35:22 PM »
 I want to try my hand at a Belgian Saison next week using Lallemand Belle Saison yeast.

First question:  What is a good fermentation temperature/schedule for a saison?  The Lallemand data sheet says above 17C(63F) and has a performance chart for 20C(68F).  But it does not have a temp range listed.  It also says “Saison beers are quite unique to brew. During fermentation, cooling is not normally used, allowing temperature of fermentation to increase.”  But to what?

Second question:  Would temp swings be bad?  I have a lager in the ferm chamber so I’d like to ferment the saison in the brew room.

Third question:  Here’s my proposed recipe for 5.75 gal. in fermenter.  All suggestions gladly received.
9.5 lbs.  Weyermann Pilsner
1 lb.      Weyermann Cara Munich
1 lb.      Briess white wheat
1 lb.        D-45 candi syrup (boil 10 min.)
.5 oz.      CTZ (60 min., 19.5 IBU)
oz.    Hallertau (15 min., 6 IBU)
.5 oz.      Cascade (15 min., 3.7 IBU)
.5 oz.      Hallertau (steep/whirlpool)
Estimated OG = 1.059,  Est. FG = 1.009 (but I'm hoping for lower)
Edit:  Oops!  the Cara Munich  was a mistake.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 04:03:39 AM by Philbrew »
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Offline denny

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 06:19:54 PM »
Drew recommends starting saison at 63.  After a week (?) or so he ramps up.  It's discussed in the latest podcast.  And if you're using the Dupont saison yeast, you want to do some variation of open fermentatkion.
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Offline rob_f

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 06:25:53 PM »
My method is to put a heat wrap and controller on it and just follow the temperature up as it rises, just don't let it fall as fermentation slows.  That has even kept the Dupont yeast from going to sleep early.  I've had them go as 86 F and have good ones that went into the 90's.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 06:42:48 PM »
Drew recommends starting saison at 63.  After a week (?) or so he ramps up. 

Coincidentally (independently determined, not because of Drew) this is what I do as well.  Start in mid 60s, then ramp up to about 74 F in the second week.  There's no need to heat above the low to mid 70s, that's excessive and unnecessary, and theoretically could even lead to fusels, yes, even in a saison.
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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 06:43:10 PM »
Drew recommends starting saison at 63.  After a week (?) or so he ramps up.  It's discussed in the latest podcast.  And if you're using the Dupont saison yeast, you want to do some variation of open fermentatkion.
I don't know if it's the Dupont strain.  The Lallemand data sheet only says "Belle Saison is an ale yeast of Belgian origin selected for its ability to produce great Saison-style beer."
I hope Mark can chime in.
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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 06:46:44 PM »
Drew recommends starting saison at 63.  After a week (?) or so he ramps up. 

Coincidentally (independently determined, not because of Drew) this is what I do as well.  Start in mid 60s, then ramp up to about 74 F in the second week.  There's no need to heat above the low to mid 70s, that's excessive and unnecessary, and theoretically could even lead to fusels, yes, even in a saison.
Sounds like I should wait until my lager is packaged and use the temp controlled chamber.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 06:48:52 PM »
I don't know if it's the Dupont strain.  The Lallemand data sheet only says "Belle Saison is an ale yeast of Belgian origin selected for its ability to produce great Saison-style beer."
I hope Mark can chime in.



Belle saison is reputed by many to (possibly) be 3711, definitely not Dupont.
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Offline kramerog

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Belle Saison
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 06:49:08 PM »
There are some folks who have a lot/quite a bit of experience with Belle Saison.  IIRC from past threads, Belle Saision is a beast and there is no need to raise the temperature out of the 60s or the lows 70s.

I would ferment at room temp.

D-45 is probably not part of the style, but who cares.

Offline MDixon

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 08:43:29 PM »
I have not used that yeast, but I have used the DuPont strain and I let it go to ambient garage temps in the summer and I believe that was low 90s. Made a great beer, but also hit the wall for a week or two and the fermentation restarted.

As far as your beer, if someone with experience says don't heat that strain up, don't do it.
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 09:15:13 PM »
I've got opinions...

Belle Saison makes crummy saison.

No matter the temperature, no matter the grist. I wouldn't waste a brewday on it.

3711, 3522, and 3724 (especially blended with one of the other 2) are good alternatives. WLP585 is also nice, but it can give a little too much banana (which is a divisive flavor in saison).

3726 is my absolute favorite. Great ester profile and attenuation across a wide range of temperatures. It will be available in the summer.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 05:08:37 AM »
I've got opinions...

Belle Saison makes crummy saison.

Totally disagree.  It's the same dang thing as 3711 anyway.
Dave

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Offline majorvices

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 11:11:34 AM »
Drew recommends starting saison at 63.  After a week (?) or so he ramps up.  It's discussed in the latest podcast.  And if you're using the Dupont saison yeast, you want to do some variation of open fermentatkion.

I find the same thing (I start mine at 64). In fact, I find 64 is the west spot for me for most of my ale yeasts (German ale yeast and scottish excluded)

Offline denny

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2016, 03:27:25 PM »
I've got opinions...

Belle Saison makes crummy saison.

Totally disagree.  It's the same dang thing as 3711 anyway.

Probably not.  It may have come from the same source but I doubt that it's exactly the same any longer.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2016, 05:13:52 PM »
Belle Saison makes crummy saison.

Totally disagree.  It's the same dang thing as 3711 anyway.

Probably not.  It may have come from the same source but I doubt that it's exactly the same any longer.

Of course you are correct.  Similarly, 1056, WLP001, and US-05 are very different, even though they are considered by most people to be equals because they originated from the same source, they are not any longer exactly the same since yeast mutates after just a few generations by each manufacturer.  But... they continue to be close enough for most people to not care too much.
Dave

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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Belgian Saison fermentation temp and recipe
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2016, 05:25:23 PM »
Similarly, 1056, WLP001, and US-05 are very different, even though they are considered by most people to be equals because they originated from the same source, they are not any longer exactly the same since yeast mutates after just a few generations by each manufacturer.


+1.  I believe that Belle came from/is  3711, but it's definitely not identical by any means. A little more one-note than 3711 IMO, though I like Belle in certain cases. 
Jon H.