[brewinhard]

In addition to the syrup being out of place for a traditional saison, I would also consider eliminating the 1# of caramunich as well.  Saison's should be dry, not sweet with caramel tones. This could also get in the way of a lower FG which is desired in the style (probably not much of a concern with Belle strain though). 

Now, a few oz of caramunich (3-4 oz) in a 5 gallon batch would not be unheard of and could add some orangish color and complexity depending on the Lovibond of the malt used.

[kylekohlmorgen]

Similarly, 1056, WLP001, and US-05 are very different, even though they are considered by most people to be equals because they originated from the same source, they are not any longer exactly the same since yeast mutates after just a few generations by each manufacturer.

+1.  I believe that Belle came from/is  3711, but it's definitely not identical by any means. A little more one-note than 3711 IMO, though I like Belle in certain cases.

I could go with that. Definitely agree that it has a much narrower flavor profile than most other saison yeasts including 3711.

Both 3711 or Belle are best in a saison with other things going on: hops, fruit, spices, mixed fermentation, etc. Thiriez Extra is a damn fine beer when its fresh, as are some of the hoppy saisons from Upright.

I've done two batches of higher-gravity saison with Belle (~7%), and both had higher-than-acceptable levels of fusel alcohol. The few that I've done with standard gravity wort have just been 'meh', but they became decent beers after mixed fermentation and adding dry hops or fruit.

[Philbrew]

Similarly, 1056, WLP001, and US-05 are very different, even though they are considered by most people to be equals because they originated from the same source, they are not any longer exactly the same since yeast mutates after just a few generations by each manufacturer.

+1.  I believe that Belle came from/is  3711, but it's definitely not identical by any means. A little more one-note than 3711 IMO, though I like Belle in certain cases.

What would be the one-note?  Are there lesser notes?

[HoosierBrew]

What would be the one-note?  Are there lesser notes?

To me it's just more lemony/tart, without as much complexity as 3711.  And I don't think 3711 is as complex as 3724 or 3726.  I agree with Kyle that I like 3711 or belle better when used with fruit, spices, etc. Just personal preference.

[Philbrew]

What would be the one-note?  Are there lesser notes?

To me it's just more lemony/tart, without as much complexity as 3711.  And I don't think 3711 is as complex as 3724 or 3726.  I agree with Kyle that I like 3711 or belle better when used with fruit, spices, etc. Just personal preference.

I've got some Cascade hops in there to add some citrus note.  Do you think that would compete with or complement the yeast notes?

[HoosierBrew]

What would be the one-note?  Are there lesser notes?

To me it's just more lemony/tart, without as much complexity as 3711.  And I don't think 3711 is as complex as 3724 or 3726.  I agree with Kyle that I like 3711 or belle better when used with fruit, spices, etc. Just personal preference.

I've got some Cascade hops in there to add some citrus note.  Do you think that would compete with or complement the yeast notes?

It would work - in a very American pale ale sort of way.  Not that it wouldn't taste good, it would. A couple good hops to use with it are Lemon Drop and Sorachi Ace. Both have a nice lemony character. And Drew likes to use Citra with 3711 so that's an option as well. I'd use restraint with Citra - it's powerful.

[Philbrew]

In addition to the syrup being out of place for a traditional saison, I would also consider eliminating the 1# of caramunich as well.  Saison's should be dry, not sweet with caramel tones. This could also get in the way of a lower FG which is desired in the style (probably not much of a concern with Belle strain though). 

Now, a few oz of caramunich (3-4 oz) in a 5 gallon batch would not be unheard of and could add some orangish color and complexity depending on the Lovibond of the malt used.

Whoops!  You're right, the Caramunich does not belong in this beer.  I miss-read some info and thought that it was 3L instead of a caramel malt at 35L.

The reason for the D-45 is to perhaps add some complexity and some additional flavor notes while drying the beer.  But it sounds like drying is not an issue with the Belle yeast.  Will the D-45 add to the flavor?  Some?  Too much?  Should I cut it to 1/2 lb.?

[denny]

In addition to the syrup being out of place for a traditional saison, I would also consider eliminating the 1# of caramunich as well.  Saison's should be dry, not sweet with caramel tones. This could also get in the way of a lower FG which is desired in the style (probably not much of a concern with Belle strain though). 

Now, a few oz of caramunich (3-4 oz) in a 5 gallon batch would not be unheard of and could add some orangish color and complexity depending on the Lovibond of the malt used.

Whoops!  You're right, the Caramunich does not belong in this beer.  I miss-read some info and thought that it was 3L instead of a caramel malt at 35L.

The reason for the D-45 is to perhaps add some complexity and some additional flavor notes while drying the beer.  But it sounds like drying is not an issue with the Belle yeast.  Will the D-45 add to the flavor?  Some?  Too much?  Should I cut it to 1/2 lb.?

Style wise, it will take it out of saison territory in terms of color and flavor if that matters to you.

[Joe Sr.]

In addition to the syrup being out of place for a traditional saison, I would also consider eliminating the 1# of caramunich as well.  Saison's should be dry, not sweet with caramel tones. This could also get in the way of a lower FG which is desired in the style (probably not much of a concern with Belle strain though). 

Now, a few oz of caramunich (3-4 oz) in a 5 gallon batch would not be unheard of and could add some orangish color and complexity depending on the Lovibond of the malt used.

Whoops!  You're right, the Caramunich does not belong in this beer.  I miss-read some info and thought that it was 3L instead of a caramel malt at 35L.

The reason for the D-45 is to perhaps add some complexity and some additional flavor notes while drying the beer.  But it sounds like drying is not an issue with the Belle yeast.  Will the D-45 add to the flavor?  Some?  Too much?  Should I cut it to 1/2 lb.?

Style wise, it will take it out of saison territory in terms of color and flavor if that matters to you.

I may be wrong, but didn't Drew publish a recipe for a dark saison or two?  Is that not still a saison?

What would be the one-note?  Are there lesser notes?

To me it's just more lemony/tart, without as much complexity as 3711.  And I don't think 3711 is as complex as 3724 or 3726.  I agree with Kyle that I like 3711 or belle better when used with fruit, spices, etc. Just personal preference.

To me, there's a sweet spot for 3711 as it ages. Maybe a month in or so I get a lot of white wine flavor that isn't there when the beer is as young.

I've got the same recipe with 3724 on tap right now and I'm not getting the complexity.  Maybe that's an artifact of fermenting hot?  Maybe I need to sample it to confirm...

[denny]

Yeah, you're right about Drew's dark saison.  He knows a lot more about them than I do, so it may actually be to style.  Not that he'd care!

[Joe Sr.]

I've always thought of it as a style without any hard style guidelines.

But everyone I've ever brewed has been 100% pils, sugar, and yeast.

EDIT:  Not true on the 100% pils.  I'm pretty sure I've used some percentage of wheat.  Or flaked barley.

[denny]

I've always thought of it as a style without any hard style guidelines.

But everyone I've ever brewed has been 100% pils, sugar, and yeast.

EDIT:  Not true on the 100% pils.  I'm pretty sure I've used some percentage of wheat.  Or flaked barley.

Now that I think about it, I believe Drew has referred to it as an "invented" style, like bier de garde.

[Phil_M]

FWIW, Dupont has been brewing a brown saison for 30 years.

http://www.brasserie-dupont.com/dupont/Default.aspx?Page=moinettebrune

I don't have much to add other than that. My first attempt at saison last year ended up infected, and my second attempt missed the mark I was aiming for. Should be a great beer though, but is still fermenting.

Attempt #3 will be a 100% pils malt stab at a Dupont clone. I want to play with the process more than the recipe for now.

[charles1968]

To me, there's a sweet spot for 3711 as it ages. Maybe a month in or so I get a lot of white wine flavor that isn't there when the beer is as young.

Yes, in my experience it needs about two months on the yeast (takes about 1 month to finish attenuating) and definitely has a strong white wine flavour. Super dry and tart, quite unlike other Belgian yeasts. I think it's a mutant wine yeast that somehow acquired the genes to eat malt sugars.

I would drop the caramunich and go as pale as possible. I prefer noble hops but if you use something strong like Citra, try to set aside some of the beer to age to the point where the hops fade and the 3711 flavors peak to see if you prefer it.

[Philbrew]

Yeah, you're right about Drew's dark saison.  He knows a lot more about them than I do, so it may actually be to style.  Not that he'd care!

The current style guidelines say 5-22 SRM for a saison.

The Wyeast style guide has candi sugar as a possible ingredient.  Is that different from candi syrup?