[JJeffers09]

yeah his starter was made with DME from an old APA kit for a 1 gallon batch.  so like 5oz of DME or something. I know he was using a "Shaken... not stirred" method of keeping his yeast starter up and running.  I pitched his slurry in, and I do not know what kind of water he used.  But yeah IDK.  If he did a diacetyl rest you thinking a tank heater or electric blanket to another 10 degrees? would work? how long? couple days?  I was afraid he used bleach or something to clean out his bucket last time, but he said he used starsan in the last clean up and uses iodophor now

[blair.streit]

yeah his starter was made with DME from an old APA kit for a 1 gallon batch.  so like 5oz of DME or something. I know he was using a "Shaken... not stirred" method of keeping his yeast starter up and running.  I pitched his slurry in, and I do not know what kind of water he used.  But yeah IDK.  If he did a diacetyl rest you thinking a tank heater or electric blanket to another 10 degrees? would work? how long? couple days?  I was afraid he used bleach or something to clean out his bucket last time, but he said he used starsan in the last clean up and uses iodophor now

Sorry, I meant diacetyl test -- as in take a sample and warm it to about 90F in the microwave or something. Cover, swirl and smell, then sip and smell again. If it smells like microwave popcorn then you'll know.

[denny]

yeah his starter was made with DME from an old APA kit for a 1 gallon batch.  so like 5oz of DME or something. I know he was using a "Shaken... not stirred" method of keeping his yeast starter up and running.  I pitched his slurry in, and I do not know what kind of water he used.  But yeah IDK.  If he did a diacetyl rest you thinking a tank heater or electric blanket to another 10 degrees? would work? how long? couple days?  I was afraid he used bleach or something to clean out his bucket last time, but he said he used starsan in the last clean up and uses iodophor now

Sorry, I meant diacetyl test -- as in take a sample and warm it to about 90F in the microwave or something. Cover, swirl and smell, then sip and smell again. If it smells like microwave popcorn then you'll know.

I can have a hard time tasting or smelling diacetyl, but I can always detect the slick mouthfeel.

[brewinhard]

yeah his starter was made with DME from an old APA kit for a 1 gallon batch.  so like 5oz of DME or something. I know he was using a "Shaken... not stirred" method of keeping his yeast starter up and running.  I pitched his slurry in, and I do not know what kind of water he used.  But yeah IDK.  If he did a diacetyl rest you thinking a tank heater or electric blanket to another 10 degrees? would work? how long? couple days?  I was afraid he used bleach or something to clean out his bucket last time, but he said he used starsan in the last clean up and uses iodophor now

Sorry, I meant diacetyl test -- as in take a sample and warm it to about 90F in the microwave or something. Cover, swirl and smell, then sip and smell again. If it smells like microwave popcorn then you'll know.

I can have a hard time tasting or smelling diacetyl, but I can always detect the slick mouthfeel.

+1. Unless it is an in-your-face butter bomb (which I have had from a couple local breweries).

[AmandaK]

RE: all this astringency chatter

Is it felt in the jowls? Then it is absolutely astringency.
Is it a bitter sensation on the tongue or palate? Probably just bitterness.

FWIW, I prefer to say "harsh bitterness" rather than astringency in the later case. It gets my point across better than saying "hop astringency" - which I don't believe is the correct terminology.

Like Dave, I see plenty of new judges claiming astringency in beers that are just bitter. A bit of education typically works well in those instances.

[AmandaK]

In response to the original question, the 5 top off 'flavors' I see around here are:

• Oxidation, especially in APA/IPA
• Diacetyl, mainly in lagers
• Acetaldehyde, mainly in lagers
• Excessive acetic, in sour beers
• Fusels, in meads

[denny]

RE: all this astringency chatter

Is it felt in the jowls? Then it is absolutely astringency.
Is it a bitter sensation on the tongue or palate? Probably just bitterness.

FWIW, I prefer to say "harsh bitterness" rather than astringency in the later case. It gets my point across better than saying "hop astringency" - which I don't believe is the correct terminology.

Like Dave, I see plenty of new judges claiming astringency in beers that are just bitter. A bit of education typically works well in those instances.

How would you describe astringency due to hops in beers that aren't all that bitter?  I'm working my way through a bunch of NE IPAs and so far every one has left me with an astringent mouthfeel, even though none had what could be described as "harsh bitterness".  I assume it's due to the massive flavor hopping they do.  Not only can I feel the astringency, my mouth feels like it's coated with hop particles!

[AmandaK]

RE: all this astringency chatter

Is it felt in the jowls? Then it is absolutely astringency.
Is it a bitter sensation on the tongue or palate? Probably just bitterness.

FWIW, I prefer to say "harsh bitterness" rather than astringency in the later case. It gets my point across better than saying "hop astringency" - which I don't believe is the correct terminology.

Like Dave, I see plenty of new judges claiming astringency in beers that are just bitter. A bit of education typically works well in those instances.

How would you describe astringency due to hops in beers that aren't all that bitter?  I'm working my way through a bunch of NE IPAs and so far every one has left me with an astringent mouthfeel, even though none had what could be described as "harsh bitterness".  I assume it's due to the massive flavor hopping they do.  Not only can I feel the astringency, my mouth feels like it's coated with hop particles!

Is that "astringent mouthfeel" in the side of the mouth, near the jowls? Then I'll say it's astringency. Do I know that it is from the hops? No. I really work to avoid assumptions in my feedback, so I still wouldn't say "hop astringency" or "astringency due to hops". Just saying those phrases is, in itself, an assumption of process.

As a side bar, I think that NE IPAs are an odd duck. On one hand, they're so chock full of hops that they are almost thick and gritty. But they're also what I'll describe as "fluffy", for lack of a better term, which may mask some of the bitterness. I'm still not sure what to think of them, outside of the fact that I don't like them... which of course means that I don't really want to do further "testing" on it. I would be willing to venture a guess that since the style flies in the face of what is considered normal "best-practices" in brewing, that normal descriptors may not work very well on NE IPAs.

[dmtaylor]

How would you describe astringency due to hops in beers that aren't all that bitter?  I'm working my way through a bunch of NE IPAs and so far every one has left me with an astringent mouthfeel, even though none had what could be described as "harsh bitterness".  I assume it's due to the massive flavor hopping they do.  Not only can I feel the astringency, my mouth feels like it's coated with hop particles!

Is it oily or greasy in any way?  Ever lick a HopShot?  That's not astringent, that's just effing bitter!!!!  I've never tasted an NE IPA, but if it's gooey in any way, then I imagine it might be a hop oil thing, similar to the HopShot, and if so, that's still not astringency.

But, I could be totally wrong.  I'm sure someone will place an NE IPA in front of my face in the near future, many of my friends are IPA freaks even if I'm not.  Only then will I be able to figure out what's really up with this new style.

[brewinhard]

How would you describe astringency due to hops in beers that aren't all that bitter?  I'm working my way through a bunch of NE IPAs and so far every one has left me with an astringent mouthfeel, even though none had what could be described as "harsh bitterness".  I assume it's due to the massive flavor hopping they do.  Not only can I feel the astringency, my mouth feels like it's coated with hop particles!

  Ever lick a HopShot? 

Ha!  Not yet.  But now you got me curious. 

[HoosierBrew]

Ever lick a HopShot? 

Ha!  Not yet.  But now you got me curious. 

I've read a pretty unpleasant account or two. Evidently takes a loooooong time to get the taste off your tongue. 

[JJeffers09]

oh god I would imagine that to absolutely awful.  That's like saying, "Hey have you tried this drink ipecac?  Or ever tried ipecac syrup pancakes?"

[dmtaylor]

Everyone needs to try it once.  It won't kill you, but it will edumacate you of the difference between bitterness and astringency.  I don't recall it being astringent, but it sure as hell is bitter!

[HoosierBrew]

Everyone needs to try it once.  It won't kill you, but it will edumacate you of the difference between bitterness and astringency.  I don't recall it being astringent, but it sure as hell is bitter!

I'm sure of that!  And I agree with you on the astringency issue, too - gets used more than it should.

[denny]

It's not just on the jowls and it's not oily or greasy.  What I'm getting from these beers is an almost cottony coating of my mouth and teeth and a real grape skin like dryness in my mouth.  I guess there's no way of knowing if it's from the hops or high pH, but since the beer is almost gritty I'm guessing hops.