Author Topic: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.  (Read 8707 times)

Offline wobdee

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2016, 07:01:38 am »
I haven't done the cold ferment yet but I will when I purchase a little more equipment. I know a few people that do and I think they use a little more yeast that what your using. Maybe up your yeast another 100 billion cells for the next one.

Offline tommymorris

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Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2016, 09:51:54 am »
It was at 1.013 at 41F? That means it should be more like 1.011-1.012 at 68F. It reads higher when it's colder.

Bingo - I missed that. Your hydrometer will have a calibration chart that you need to use according to temp. If you are using a tight ranged la thermometer, for instance, it could be off many points at cooler or warmer temps. Sounds like you are probably right in your range after all.

OP here..... wow, things got out hand quickly! :o

The gravity reading was done with a refractometer (with alcohol correction), sample warmed to 20C. I mentioned the lower temperature, as a reference for how far the beer has fermented, vs how far I had lowered the temp, not in regards to the temp of the actual sample I measured. Sorry for the confusion.

The mash schedule was hochkurz double decoction with rests at 143 and 158.

I have had the beer sitting at 20 C (68 F) for a few days now, and it has dropped to 1.012, and seems to be working slowly still. It is still pretty 'green' so I'm hoping a little longer at this raised temp will clean it up a bit more (Including of course, a good months lagering also). How clean should I expect it to be pre lagering? No nasty esters or jet fusels, Just a bit rough, and a touch of diacetyl currently. The already subtle flavours of the beer are being obscured a bit at this point.

I am now torn as to which method to ferment with my next lagers. This beer was a trial beer to make mistakes on, so I can do some Oktoberfest beers for a party later in the year. A festbier, and Dunkel. I am really keen on succeeding at the traditional cold method, but this has left me lacking in confidence! Although I do know where I went wrong. Dropped temps too fast + probably slightly underpitched for this method. 

 
Sounds like things are going well. If there are ANY diacetyl flavors present don't bottle or keg. It will only get worse. Leave the beer on the yeast cake and warm to 68-70F. Then swirl the beer gently to get some yeast back in suspension. That and about a week rest should get rid of the diacetyl.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2016, 10:56:12 am »
In fairness, if this guy Brian has been brewing and on these forums for all these years, I can see how he might have snapped and turned out this way. As cool as this forum is, there is a constant push back against anything new. Or against old ways that are different from the cool new accepted way. It can be a simple as a peice of tape showing volume increase in a starter, or a chunk of pvc with a gas-in connector on it. Or something insanely out there like not using a stir plate. The knee jerk reaction is almost always to tear it down rather than try it. I dont think most people mean anything by it. Its just habbit probably. So I could see some possibly legit reason why someone might say they know a trick but their not going to share it. It does get a little tiresome.
Bingo! I think he just wants to see people break away from the ole boys homebrewing circle jerk once in awhile, do their own research from some real profesional brewing texts and give those things you learn a try. I can see how one can get frustrated after spending too much time on the forums. I know I need a break every now and then.



I call total BS. Not everyone on this forum is the same. Many people, myself included, are constantly experimenting and tweaking to find better ways of doing things. I think the majority of lager brewers here would be extremely grateful for some honest, open sharing of info with Bryan, like is the case with most homebrewers. But we get condescending comments about our posts. Hell, even on posted beer pics ! All with complete refusal to share a shred of precious info that might help someone. Yes, people like Mark did meet with resistance from some stir plate users, no argument. But, know what? He has posted a wealth of technical info (some over my head) that has been extremely helpful to people, and I think basically everyone here is grateful to him. But the insinuation that Bryan is the way he is because of the people on this forum is complete, utter BS. Wow.
Jon H.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2016, 11:14:22 am »
The issue I see here is that this one user keeps saying he has a better way, but won't share it.

There is no comparison to S. Cerivisiae's stirplate/starter post. That user provided the info to back up his statement. He didn't say "Hey, I've got a better starter method. You're going to have to figure out for yourself what it is though."
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2016, 11:15:44 am »
The issue I see here is that this one user keeps saying he has a better way, but won't share it.

There is no comparison to S. Cerivisiae's stirplate/starter post. That user provided the info to back up his statement. He didn't say "Hey, I've got a better starter method. You're going to have to figure out for yourself what it is though."


Yep, aside from the fact that both guys brew beer, I see no similarities.
Jon H.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2016, 11:18:11 am »
The issue I see here is that this one user keeps saying he has a better way, but won't share it.

There is no comparison to S. Cerivisiae's stirplate/starter post. That user provided the info to back up his statement. He didn't say "Hey, I've got a better starter method. You're going to have to figure out for yourself what it is though."
Jim's concern was the backlash received by Mark for being a proponent of witchcraft. I don't remember the thread anymore, but I say we burn him.

Offline jeffy

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2016, 12:00:37 pm »
Back to Nick's original post and follow up, I am confused by the two additions of unfermented wort.  Were you trying to ferment this under pressure for carbonation?  Usually you do that after the fermentation is complete, possibly after lagering, not before.
It kind of negates the fast ferment test as well.  If you were expecting 1.010 to 1.011 and then added some extract, the estimate would change.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2016, 03:18:27 pm »
Sometimes I am glad that I am on the raod, and don't get caught up in the flow.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2016, 05:08:00 pm »
Sometimes I am glad that I am on the raod, and don't get caught up in the flow.

Agreed.  Ignorance is bliss.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2016, 07:43:52 pm »
Sorry to see that some folks push the forum into ludicrous directions.  Stuck lagers fermentation?  Probably a result of under pitching or mashing too high....

As to the knuckleheads - I refuse to be pushed into arguments where no one presents a proposition and yet asserts a subjective result.

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RPIScotty

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2016, 08:12:41 pm »
Jim Morrison captured it when he sang the words - "If I swallow anything evil, stick a finger down my throat".

I think you meant Roger Daltrey.

Offline 69franx

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2016, 09:56:10 pm »
"And if I shiver, please give me a blanket. Keep me warm, let me wear your coat" and yes I feel the Daltrey here,  not Jim
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Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2016, 10:34:32 am »
Oops - brain fart...Daltrey for sure, not lizard king.

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Offline Nick_D

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2016, 12:05:22 am »
Back to Nick's original post and follow up, I am confused by the two additions of unfermented wort.  Were you trying to ferment this under pressure for carbonation?  Usually you do that after the fermentation is complete, possibly after lagering, not before.
It kind of negates the fast ferment test as well.  If you were expecting 1.010 to 1.011 and then added some extract, the estimate would change.

Hi Jeffy, I think you may be confusing the technique of adding unfermeted wort to achieve carbonation, with the tradtional method of Kräusening. The wort I added was vigorously fermenting. It's purpose was to help attenuation, and clean up the beer, not carbonate, although it is common to use a spunding valve to achieve both.
My first Kräusening effort used saved wort from the same batch, so it would in theory not change the fast ferment test results, as its mash profile was identical. The second batch was made from DME, as I had no more saved wort, and as you mentioned, this will impart a small change to the final gravity (DME being less fermentable). This probably accounts for the current gravity of 1.012, which seems to be it's final resting place. Still got it at 68 to further clean up before lagering.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Stuck lager (couple of points sg) need advice.
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2016, 12:09:59 pm »
1.012 is pretty decently fermented out for most lagers, though if mashed low enough, some of mine are in the 1.008-1.010 range.  There's only so much the yeast can do with the wort given them, right?

It sounds like you did what you could and it likely will be a wonderful lager beer.
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