[toby]

99% right on, Toby!  But I don't know what the haze is from in these beers.  Could be one or more of a number of things.  But the flavor is definitely there, and I don't feel it's ;lacking or that the beers are not fresh.  It's more like I feel the haze is muting the flavors.

I think in some cases it is.  Obviously I can't speak for all of them since not all the brewers are guaranteed to be using the same procedure, but generally speaking, a lot of them are using 'low' mash temperatures to allow for more fermentable sugars and less residual sweetness.  As a result, they add other things like flaked wheat or oats (and I've even heard of wheat flour) to add mouthfeel and body back.  Late and dry hop additions dominate the hop schedule.  If I had to guess and put numbers on it, I'd say the haze is 70% proteins from the flaked grain, 20-25% hop haze, and 5-10% yeast in suspension.  I've seen a few people even theorize that overextraction of the hop oils contributes to the haze, but I'm more inclined to believe the simple protein haze from flaked oats or wheat.

[toby]

Heady drops clear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amgfgU5-lhs

I did a personal test with a can some years ago and let one sit in the fridge for 6-mo.  It was indeed clear and still better than 90% of the IPAs out.

Yeah, that supports my theory that it's yeast.  I still think it loses a lot of flavor after a few months though.

Kimmich's own claim is that it's proteins and hop resins (about mid way through that video).  I'm inclined to agree.  Even the least flocculent yeasts I use will drop way before 6 months.

[narvin]

Heady drops clear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amgfgU5-lhs

I did a personal test with a can some years ago and let one sit in the fridge for 6-mo.  It was indeed clear and still better than 90% of the IPAs out.

Yeah, that supports my theory that it's yeast.  I still think it loses a lot of flavor after a few months though.

Kimmich's own claim is that it's proteins and hop resins (about mid way through that video).  I'm inclined to agree.  Even the least flocculent yeasts I use will drop way before 6 months.

If you're drinking out of the can, it will re suspend.  And you can't see how poor it looks.

I'll stop now  . But there is something to be said for early hops.  And when they are isomerized, beta acids will contribute flavors as aging happens.

[erockrph]

Wow, walk away from your thread for a few hours... 

Personally, I think a significant portion of the haze in these beers is coming from the hops. I get a pretty similar opaque haze in my IPA's, but it's not quite that orange juice/lemonade appearance from these NEIPA's. I wouldn't be surprised if the extra proteins and/or beta-glucans coming from the unmalted grains are providing the rest of the haze, or are maybe complexing with the hop oils or polyphenols in some way.

And getting the intense hop aroma from these beers is no secret. Use 1 to 1.5 oz/gallon of fairly oily hops in your dry hops and you will have the same aroma intensity of these beers. No other special tricks are needed.

[erockrph]

I'm about ready to call BS on the whole "the beer is cloudy becasue it's so hoppy" thing.  I have had PNW IPAs that had every bit as much hop aroma and flavor and were crystal clear.

Ppl often make these blanket statements but rarely offer up a beer to try that compares. 

Cheers to the other brewer mentioning Heretic as one he prefers.  I disagree with his assessment (particularly on aroma), but at least he mentioned a beer.  I would agree that these hazy IPAs are slightly thin and the IBUs are much closer to APAs than IPAs, but the aroma on the Trillium and Tree House beers are out of this world.  To me and my palate, the combo of over-the-top hop aroma with thinner body and lower IBUs, makes the beers overly crushable.  I have to mentally stop myself from gulping the beer.  Similar to pounding a Gatorade after a game of basketball.

Just to be clear, I don't find Evil Twin to have a superior hop aroma to the Trillium brews. I just happened to be drinking them side-by-side and found that I preferred the hop bitterness and flavor of the Heretic beer, which made it more crushable to me.

And is crushable really that bad of a descriptor? Crush, guzzle, pound, chug - I think we all get the idea. The opposite of a "sipper", something you don't mind drinking lots of on a hot summer day. We're not writing BJCP scoresheets here. Compared to something truly atrocious like "HomebrewCon", crushable isn't worth batting an eyelash at.

[HoosierBrew]

And getting the intense hop aroma from these beers is no secret. Use 1 to 1.5 oz/gallon of fairly oily hops in your dry hops and you will have the same aroma intensity of these beers. No other special tricks are needed.

Yeah, my thought, too. I was leaning toward brewing a gallon or two of something in this vein, to satisfy my curiosity at the silly haze. But I don't can beer and wouldn't fill them with turbid beer if I did. And I don't want to serve it to friends in glasses either. I'm pretty confident in getting enough flavor and aroma into my beers as is. And I really don't mind 'crushable' so much either.

[pete b]

I too find "crushable" completely adequate. I know exactly what it means and it has no negative connotations. I much prefer it to "sessionable". It seems everyone on this forum lately has been hidebound and reactionary in regards to language.
 

[klickitat jim]

I prefer shredable. Actually, a word that gets used a ton and in different ways each time is Balance. How you can have a 70 IBU bone dry IPA described as balanced is beyond my understanding of the word. Its just the cool word to say instead of drinkable or tasty.

[fmader]

I prefer shredable. Actually, a word that gets used a ton and in different ways each time is Balance. How you can have a 70 IBU bone dry IPA described as balanced is beyond my understanding of the word. Its just the cool word to say instead of drinkable or tasty.

Yeah. I don't get "balanced" when describing an IPA either. I'd much rather have an "unbalanced" IPA.

[pete b]

Although Jim's description of a bone dry IPA doesn't make sense to describe as balanced I wouldn't say  that an IPA can't be balanced. A nice malt backbone in an IPA is what gives it balance and makes it a pleasure to drink. That is why All Day IPA is such a horrible beer IMO, it's fully as bitter as other IPAs without the malt and that makes me stop at one. I find some double IPAs more crushable than these "sessionable" IPAS.

[HoosierBrew]

I prefer shredable. Actually, a word that gets used a ton and in different ways each time is Balance. How you can have a 70 IBU bone dry IPA described as balanced is beyond my understanding of the word. Its just the cool word to say instead of drinkable or tasty.

Yeah. I don't get "balanced" when describing an IPA either. I'd much rather have an "unbalanced" IPA.

I agree. Balanced is a pretty subjective term sometimes. If we talk about a balanced BoPils or ESB, I think most people get what that means. But a balanced AIPA ?  To me AIPA has a firm, clean malt base that is a vehicle for hop character. I don't want a balanced one any more than I'd want a 'balanced' doppelbock.

[pete b]

I think Jon and my posts right here seconds apart are a funny example of how language is subjective. I guess you could say IPAs are not balanced but sessionable ones are TOO unbalanced.
Edit: to me it's relative. Some IPAs are relatively more balanced than others.

[HoosierBrew]

I think Jon and my posts right here seconds apart are a funny example of how language is subjective. I guess you could say IPAs are not balanced but sessionable ones are TOO unbalanced.
Edit: to me it's relative. Some IPAs are relatively more balanced than others.

Yep   Don't get me wrong - I don't want a glass of hop tea any more than anybody. There needs to be some malt base. I just see IPA as 'much less balanced' than most beers. Definitely a terminology thing.

[RPIScotty]

I think Jon and my posts right here seconds apart are a funny example of how language is subjective. I guess you could say IPAs are not balanced but sessionable ones are TOO unbalanced.
Edit: to me it's relative. Some IPAs are relatively more balanced than others.

Yep   Don't get me wrong - I don't want a glass of hop tea any more than anybody. There needs to be some malt base. I just see IPA as 'much less balanced' than most beers. Definitely a terminology thing.

I see BU:GU and Relative Bitterness Ratio confused with "Balance" value sometimes and I scratch my head.

[hopfenundmalz]

I'm about ready to call BS on the whole "the beer is cloudy becasue it's so hoppy" thing.  I have had PNW IPAs that had every bit as much hop aroma and flavor and were crystal clear.

Ppl often make these blanket statements but rarely offer up a beer to try that compares. 

Thought I had...maybe that was another discussion.  I'd say Sticky Hands from Block 15 in Corvallis or the AIPA/DIPA (whose names I can't recall) from Bale Breaker.

Denny, you and Gary G. Had me get those at the bar in Yakima.

AIPA=Top Cutter
DIPA=Bottom Cutter