[denny]

I'm about ready to call BS on the whole "the beer is cloudy becasue it's so hoppy" thing.  I have had PNW IPAs that had every bit as much hop aroma and flavor and were crystal clear.

Ppl often make these blanket statements but rarely offer up a beer to try that compares. 

Thought I had...maybe that was another discussion.  I'd say Sticky Hands from Block 15 in Corvallis or the AIPA/DIPA (whose names I can't recall) from Bale Breaker.

Denny, you and Gary G. Had me get those at the bar in Yakima.

AIPA=Top Cutter
DIPA=Bottom Cutter

Thanks, Jeff!  Your memory is much better than mine.

[pete b]

I think Jon and my posts right here seconds apart are a funny example of how language is subjective. I guess you could say IPAs are not balanced but sessionable ones are TOO unbalanced.
Edit: to me it's relative. Some IPAs are relatively more balanced than others.

Yep   Don't get me wrong - I don't want a glass of hop tea any more than anybody. There needs to be some malt base. I just see IPA as 'much less balanced' than most beers. Definitely a terminology thing.

I see BU:GU and Relative Bitterness Ratio confused with "Balance" value sometimes and I scratch my head.

The more I think of it the more I realize that the term balance is always in the context of what is being described or compared. When describing all styles of beers IPAs are not balanced, meaning that it has one or more characteristics that is dominant or abundant, in this case hops. But when comparing IPAs and their bitterness vs malt flavor and body, there are more and less balanced IPAs. I think its a useful enough term.

[hopfenundmalz]

I'm about ready to call BS on the whole "the beer is cloudy becasue it's so hoppy" thing.  I have had PNW IPAs that had every bit as much hop aroma and flavor and were crystal clear.

Ppl often make these blanket statements but rarely offer up a beer to try that compares. 

Thought I had...maybe that was another discussion.  I'd say Sticky Hands from Block 15 in Corvallis or the AIPA/DIPA (whose names I can't recall) from Bale Breaker.

Denny, you and Gary G. Had me get those at the bar in Yakima.

AIPA=Top Cutter
DIPA=Bottom Cutter

Thanks, Jeff!  Your memory is much better than mine.

That is because I am so young. 

One hazy beer that has been around a long time is Bell's Oberon, an American Wheat. On a brewery tour, it was claimed that was due to the wheat malt providing haze producing proteins to the finished beer. The kegs are shipped upside down, so that the proteins get resuspended at the bar. They also tell the bars to rock the kegs to resuspend the protein. I don't get gastro distress from Oberon, so it is not yeast.

Denny, it would be educational if you could get Igors in the NE to look for yeast in these NEIPAs under the microscope.

[denny]

Denny, it would be educational if you could get Igors in the NE to look for yeast in these NEIPAs under the microscope.

Jeff, that's an excellent idea!

[reverseapachemaster]

The haze isn't necessary to get hop flavor or aroma but the addition of oats/wheat adds IMO to the smoother grain flavor that in turn lends to the sweeter overall flavor of the style.

[denny]

The haze isn't necessary to get hop flavor or aroma but the addition of oats/wheat adds IMO to the smoother grain flavor that in turn lends to the sweeter overall flavor of the style.

At least with the ones I've tried so far, I don't find them sweet.  I do think the bitterness is muted, but to me that's a different thing.

[klickitat jim]

I believe in haze with a reason, other than haze.

[erockrph]

I believe in haze with a reason, other than haze.

Right, and that's my main reason for trying this. My IPA's already have a crapload of haze (I actually use way more hops than the commercial examples do in my normal IPA's), but I just need to see if this haze is different.

[erockrph]

I think Jon and my posts right here seconds apart are a funny example of how language is subjective. I guess you could say IPAs are not balanced but sessionable ones are TOO unbalanced.
Edit: to me it's relative. Some IPAs are relatively more balanced than others.

Yep   Don't get me wrong - I don't want a glass of hop tea any more than anybody. There needs to be some malt base. I just see IPA as 'much less balanced' than most beers. Definitely a terminology thing.

I see BU:GU and Relative Bitterness Ratio confused with "Balance" value sometimes and I scratch my head.

The more I think of it the more I realize that the term balance is always in the context of what is being described or compared. When describing all styles of beers IPAs are not balanced, meaning that it has one or more characteristics that is dominant or abundant, in this case hops. But when comparing IPAs and their bitterness vs malt flavor and body, there are more and less balanced IPAs. I think its a useful enough term.

There are two different way to use the term balance, and that always seems to ends up in a semantics debate. You can talk about the balance between two opposing characters in a beer, like malty/bitter or malty/sour for sours. I think of it as a see-saw where the fulcrum is slid to one side or another. For example, to me, I'm looking for a balance in IPA's skewed just far enough to the bitter side where there is a snappy finish without a lingering, coating resin character. There is an ideal balance point for each style to each person's palate.

To speak of "Balanced" as in "perfectly balanced". is the point where that fulcrum is set exactly in the middle. There are a handful of styles that might hit this mark (Bitters, BoPils, American Amber, Oud Bruin), but most beers have a balance point to one side or the other. Those beers aren't "Balanced" (capital B), but they still should have the right balance for their style.

[HoosierBrew]

I think Jon and my posts right here seconds apart are a funny example of how language is subjective. I guess you could say IPAs are not balanced but sessionable ones are TOO unbalanced.
Edit: to me it's relative. Some IPAs are relatively more balanced than others.

Yep   Don't get me wrong - I don't want a glass of hop tea any more than anybody. There needs to be some malt base. I just see IPA as 'much less balanced' than most beers. Definitely a terminology thing.

I see BU:GU and Relative Bitterness Ratio confused with "Balance" value sometimes and I scratch my head.

The more I think of it the more I realize that the term balance is always in the context of what is being described or compared. When describing all styles of beers IPAs are not balanced, meaning that it has one or more characteristics that is dominant or abundant, in this case hops. But when comparing IPAs and their bitterness vs malt flavor and body, there are more and less balanced IPAs. I think its a useful enough term.

There are two different way to use the term balance, and that always seems to ends up in a semantics debate. You can talk about the balance between two opposing characters in a beer, like malty/bitter or malty/sour for sours. I think of it as a see-saw where the fulcrum is slid to one side or another. For example, to me, I'm looking for a balance in IPA's skewed just far enough to the bitter side where there is a snappy finish without a lingering, coating resin character. There is an ideal balance point for each style to each person's palate.

To speak of "Balanced" as in "perfectly balanced". is the point where that fulcrum is set exactly in the middle. There are a handful of styles that might hit this mark (Bitters, BoPils, American Amber, Oud Bruin), but most beers have a balance point to one side or the other. Those beers aren't "Balanced" (capital B), but they still should have the right balance for their style.

I agree. And even then there's subjectivity on whether the beer found its balance. Take the hop heavy AIPAs we make - you and I might feel like we nailed the balance on our IPAs where non-hophead folks might not agree. 

[klickitat jim]

I get the idea of the balance of an IPA being firmly to the hop aroma, flavor, and bitterness side, with malt only there to counterbalance it. What I intended to say was the use of the word balance as though it were a special word like "this beer is all about balance" or even worse "you can really taste the balance", or a brewery describing their beer as a "perfectly balanced IPA". This would make more sense "A hop dominant beer counterbalanced by grainy toasty malt"

[HoosierBrew]

I agree, Jim. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want a doppelbock or Wee Heavy that was sold as having great balance, either.

[toby]

At least with the ones I've tried so far, I don't find them sweet.  I do think the bitterness is muted, but to me that's a different thing.

Exactly.  Not sweet, but just a softer bitterness.

[erockrph]

I brewed this last night with a few changes from my original recipe. I changed the mineral profile to 80ppm Cl, 150ppm SO4, and no added Na. I just need some dryness in the finish in my IPAs. I also ran a little low on torrified wheat, so I made up the difference with some extra oats. It ended up being 12.5% wheat and 9.5% oats in the end. I also used WLP013 since my smack pack of 1469 was DOA.

My only boil addition was hop shot, and I went with the 120 F whirlpool temp. What I noticed was that as I chilled to 120F and saw the cold break start to separate out, was that the wort was super clear. It wasn't until maybe 10-15 minutes into my hop stand where the wort assumed the bright orange juice appearance I was expecting.

That leads me to think that a lot of the haze is indeed coming from the hops. Some was coming from the re-suspended break material as well, since the filtered wort (run through a 75-micron screen) in the fermenter was still hazy but not as much as it was during the whirlpool. I'm sure the dry hops will make it even hazier once I get to that point.

One other interesting note - I'm not typically a scum-skimmer, but the wort was fully covered with a thick, dark-grey foam before it hit a boil. I scooped it off into a pitcher, and 2 hours later it was still the consistency of a thick gray smoothie. Interesting stuff.

[narvin]

3 beers from last night.  The middle (Lagunitas Waldo's 420) is the clearest... and has by far the most hop aroma and flavor.


Hoppy beers always look murky in the fermenter but the suspended particles drop out pretty quickly.  It will be interesting to see what your beer looks like after some cold conditioning time.