[ANDREW.GROGAN1]

Starting grain temp 65ish it looks like this

          Qt : lbs
110F - 1.1:1
133F - 1.48:1
152F - 2:1
M/O  - 2.8:1

So yo start with 1.1:1 then add additional water at whatever temp gets you to you next step?  In this case, .48 quarts for every pound to get it to 133.  Then roughly another half quart at the right temp to get it to 152?  I am missing something with the steps and decoction.

Sorry to sound like a dummy but the step mash process/decoction is a little confusing to me.

[JJeffers09]

If speise was some sort of technique (like some think decoction is) that truly takes hefes to another level we would know.  Decoction is not critical if you formulate a decent recipe.

There are a few, very accomplished brewers, who disagree with you.  I wont say you can't get a good beer without decoction, the malting companies do an amazing job with grains on the market today.  I can say that I could see that the grains we start with are debatably better ingredients then commonly used 50 years ago.  But I do not think you can truly get the Melanoidin flavors without a proper decoction.  And with that said, as a novice, home-enthusiast, obsessive beer snob, I believe decoction is the true technique - a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.  Which I don't see how you argue that it is not a technique, but that is just me.

[denny]

One could say that at weissbier fermented with WY333 to be almost "juicy".

I hate you....

[denny]

There are a few, very accomplished brewers, who disagree with you.  I wont say you can't get a good beer without decoction, the malting companies do an amazing job with grains on the market today.  I can say that I could see that the grains we start with are debatably better ingredients then commonly used 50 years ago.  But I do not think you can truly get the Melanoidin flavors without a proper decoction.  And with that said, as a novice, home-enthusiast, obsessive beer snob, I believe decoction is the true technique - a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.  Which I don't see how you argue that it is not a technique, but that is just me.

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

I find that the "accomplished brewers" who swear by decoction have almost never done a blind tasting between the same beers decocted and not.

[JJeffers09]

A calculator would help. 
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

Fill out the calc the day of while you have the crushed grains in front of you, take a temp, use the step ratio (additional target temps at the bottom) and hit the 2nd update button on bottom and it will help you get through your mash qty/temp.

so lets say you have 16lbs grain @ current temp of 66F boiling temp at your altitude (best way to know is take the smallest pot you can and boil some water really quick, and use a calibrated thermometer) mine is 210.9F. 

1.) 110F rest you need 17.6qt @ 118F
2.) 133F - you need 6.1 quarts @ boiling
3.) 152F - you need 8.7quarts @ boiling
    a.) add your decoction mash to the grist and take a temp then put that # in your step
4.) 168F - 9.2 quarts @ boiling

[ANDREW.GROGAN1]

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

I find that the "accomplished brewers" who swear by decoction have almost never done a blind tasting between the same beers decocted and not.

So would you recommend single infusion of steps without decoction?

[denny]

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

I find that the "accomplished brewers" who swear by decoction have almost never done a blind tasting between the same beers decocted and not.

So would you recommend single infusion of steps without decoction?

I would do single infusion.

[Stevie]

If speise was some sort of technique (like some think decoction is) that truly takes hefes to another level we would know.  Decoction is not critical if you formulate a decent recipe.

There are a few, very accomplished brewers, who disagree with you.  I wont say you can't get a good beer without decoction, the malting companies do an amazing job with grains on the market today.  I can say that I could see that the grains we start with are debatably better ingredients then commonly used 50 years ago.  But I do not think you can truly get the Melanoidin flavors without a proper decoction.  And with that said, as a novice, home-enthusiast, obsessive beer snob, I believe decoction is the true technique - a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.  Which I don't see how you argue that it is not a technique, but that is just me.

Have you performed these processes/techniques and compared? According to another thread you started you are only a dozen or so batches into brewing. Are you parroting information that you read someplace else? You obviously have a wide breadth of knowledge, but how much of it is practical?

[JJeffers09]

There are a few, very accomplished brewers, who disagree with you.  I wont say you can't get a good beer without decoction, the malting companies do an amazing job with grains on the market today.  I can say that I could see that the grains we start with are debatably better ingredients then commonly used 50 years ago.  But I do not think you can truly get the Melanoidin flavors without a proper decoction.  And with that said, as a novice, home-enthusiast, obsessive beer snob, I believe decoction is the true technique - a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.  Which I don't see how you argue that it is not a technique, but that is just me.

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

I find that the "accomplished brewers" who swear by decoction have almost never done a blind tasting between the same beers decocted and not.

Denny you sir are not one I like to fuss with, but I found what you asked for.  Guys like
Gordon Strong
Jamil Zainasheff
Ted Hausotter
Harold Gulbransen
did a taste test brewing Bavarian hefeweizen 4 way test on fermentation temps, and mash profiles.

Head Retention best to worse:
Single Decoction
Protein Rest Single Decoction
Ferulic Acid rest Single Decoction
Single Infusion Mash

Panel Assessment of Flavor I believe best to worse (low fermentation temp @ 62F was preferred)
Single Decoction "smooth & well rounded, the favored Weizen of the Panel"
Ferulic Acid Rest Single Decoction & Protein Rest Single Decoction  "very similar and sharper with more estery and acidic flavors"
Single Infusion – much less flavor and much less interesting

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2011/2011%20-%20Brewing%20Bavarian%20Hefeweizen%20-%20Harold%20J.%20Gulbransen.pdf

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

"Two malts with high melanoidins are Vienna and Munich malts.  The flavor profile is much different and these malts give you a richer Melanoidin flavor"
"The other method is to include extra boiling into your brewing day. A typical one hour boil will generate a small amount of melanoidin. This is evidenced by the darkening of the wort that occurs during the process. As you might imagine, adding extra time to the boil will increase the amount that is formed."

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/melanoidin.htm

creating melanoidins in your wort does affect the color, it also affects the flavor.  So I won't say your wrong but I do believe there to be a change in flavor as well.

[RPIScotty]

There are a few, very accomplished brewers, who disagree with you.  I wont say you can't get a good beer without decoction, the malting companies do an amazing job with grains on the market today.  I can say that I could see that the grains we start with are debatably better ingredients then commonly used 50 years ago.  But I do not think you can truly get the Melanoidin flavors without a proper decoction.  And with that said, as a novice, home-enthusiast, obsessive beer snob, I believe decoction is the true technique - a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.  Which I don't see how you argue that it is not a technique, but that is just me.

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

I find that the "accomplished brewers" who swear by decoction have almost never done a blind tasting between the same beers decocted and not.

Denny you sir are not one I like to fuss with, but I found what you asked for.  Guys like
Gordon Strong
Jamil Zainasheff
Ted Hausotter
Harold Gulbransen
did a taste test brewing Bavarian hefeweizen 4 way test on fermentation temps, and mash profiles.

Head Retention best to worse:
Single Decoction
Protein Rest Single Decoction
Ferulic Acid rest Single Decoction
Single Infusion Mash

Panel Assessment of Flavor I believe best to worse (low fermentation temp @ 62F was preferred)
Single Decoction "smooth & well rounded, the favored Weizen of the Panel"
Ferulic Acid Rest Single Decoction & Protein Rest Single Decoction  "very similar and sharper with more estery and acidic flavors"
Single Infusion – much less flavor and much less interesting

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2011/2011%20-%20Brewing%20Bavarian%20Hefeweizen%20-%20Harold%20J.%20Gulbransen.pdf

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

"Two malts with high melanoidins are Vienna and Munich malts.  The flavor profile is much different and these malts give you a richer Melanoidin flavor"
"The other method is to include extra boiling into your brewing day. A typical one hour boil will generate a small amount of melanoidin. This is evidenced by the darkening of the wort that occurs during the process. As you might imagine, adding extra time to the boil will increase the amount that is formed."

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/melanoidin.htm

creating melanoidins in your wort does affect the color, it also affects the flavor.  So I won't say your wrong but I do believe there to be a change in flavor as well.

You're awesome at Google.

I don't think you can call that a blind test. Sounds like a bunch of dudes just tasting beer.

[egg]

Having done one single step and one multi rest (via dilution), my next hefe will be back to single rest, possibly just with mash out.  If I could apply direct heat, I'd experiment again.  My execution was by no means perfect, but I'm keen to experiment with recipe issues before considering another step mash attempt.  The inclusion of 3% acidulated malt made far more of a difference to the taste to me, than anything to do with the steps.

FWIW, I plan a single step around 153f with maybe 8% caramalt (13L), 70% wheat and 22% pilsner.  The WLP300 dries things out enough I think, without needing a lower mash.

More to do with my gear and brief experience though, than anything scientific!

[JJeffers09]

You're awesome at Google.

I don't you can call that a blind test.

** Edit those websites, byo.com, craftbeer.com, howtobrew.com, and fermentarium.com is what got my feet off the ground and learning how to brew before I was gifted books like:
Mastering Homebrew the complete guide to brewing delicious beer by Randy Mosher

Malt A practical Guide from field to brewhouse by John Mallett

Designing Great Beers: The ultimate guid to brewing classic beer styles by Ray Daniels

The complete joy of homebrewing 4th ed. by charlie papazian

The brewmasters bible by stephan Snyder

All of which offer up decoction as a technique essential to Hefeweizen, Dunkelweizen, Weizenbock, Krystal weiss and Weissbeir.


I know I know, I did find some literature to back up my statement.  Not because I know it all, or can act like it.  Because I am not credible based on what I can type, but on what others have researched.  I do not have the experience either you or Denny has.  I won't surpass denny for a long long time... I need atleast 2000+ brews to catch up on.  Well before I get to what denny is at now, right Denny?  I mean, it is no mistery, I just finished my first All Grain brew, and just worked out a new system, and have Krompus at Midnight under my belt.  I only have 3 partial mash (full conversion on grains) with dme to the boil kettle in brewing german wheats.  Not an expert.  I have only 28 brews under my belt, only 5 of which over 2 gal... Sooo yeah, I think a newbie is a good term for me still.

for the record, it was Bing, haha jk I know that wasn't the point you were getting at.

[RPIScotty]

I think Denny's point was (and he can back me up or offer counterpoint if need be) that if these guys didn't test it blind then their results/impressions/etc. are not really all that credible.

The human mind is a complex thing and unless an experiment is conducted that can eliminate as much of the bias and preference from the matter then the results are not useful.

[denny]

Denny you sir are not one I like to fuss with, but I found what you asked for.  Guys like
Gordon Strong
Jamil Zainasheff
Ted Hausotter
Harold Gulbransen
did a taste test brewing Bavarian hefeweizen 4 way test on fermentation temps, and mash profiles.

Head Retention best to worse:
Single Decoction
Protein Rest Single Decoction
Ferulic Acid rest Single Decoction
Single Infusion Mash

Panel Assessment of Flavor I believe best to worse (low fermentation temp @ 62F was preferred)
Single Decoction "smooth & well rounded, the favored Weizen of the Panel"
Ferulic Acid Rest Single Decoction & Protein Rest Single Decoction  "very similar and sharper with more estery and acidic flavors"
Single Infusion – much less flavor and much less interesting

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2011/2011%20-%20Brewing%20Bavarian%20Hefeweizen%20-%20Harold%20J.%20Gulbransen.pdf

Melanoidins are colors, not flavors.  You can't taste them.

"Two malts with high melanoidins are Vienna and Munich malts.  The flavor profile is much different and these malts give you a richer Melanoidin flavor"
"The other method is to include extra boiling into your brewing day. A typical one hour boil will generate a small amount of melanoidin. This is evidenced by the darkening of the wort that occurs during the process. As you might imagine, adding extra time to the boil will increase the amount that is formed."

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/melanoidin.htm

creating melanoidins in your wort does affect the color, it also affects the flavor.  So I won't say your wrong but I do believe there to be a change in flavor as well.

Thanks for that list.  In case you weren't aware (like I wasn't aware of that list) I have run my own experiment wiht many brewers and tasters....start on pg. 25...http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf

And Picobrew is dead wrong on melanoidins.  I'll mention it to them.  But it's not the melanoidins that create flavor.  The same Maillard reactions that create melanoidins also create flavors. 

[zwiller]

Can't keep up with you guys...

My personal opinion of why some brewers prefer decoction mashing is that it is much more forgiving in relation to pH.  Decoction mashing works better at higher than optimum pH (I don’t really need to post a link to Kai’s site do I?)  So, of course it makes better beer, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.  Now, assume you’re me and have a pretty good handle on pH and dial it in, that’s a whole nother ball of wax…  I see no mention of pH measurements and certainly no adjustments were made for the infusion mash in Gulbranden's work. and that brings us to what Egg beat me to, pH is key IMO.  How you get there is the fun, whether it be boiling, Ca salts, or acid malt...