[brulosopher]

Do you think that the increased density of the large gelatin addition had any bearing on the fact that it all seemed to solidify, and not as much was available to clear the beer?  Would it be worth rerunning with the large addition diluted to the same percentage as your small addition?

Perhaps it doesn't come through in the pic, but the high amount solution was barely more viscous than the standard and incorporated well into the beer. Not sure if this addresses your concern, and either way, a dilution amount xBmt could be interesting!

Thanks again for posting and doing these.  Semi OT - seeing alot of you are lager brewers, is it pretty much a "gimme" that you need to fine lagers?  My ales end up bright on their own but my recent lager I did is still very hazy about a month on tap (3470).  That's very unusual for me but I am just getting into lagers thanks to the higher temp 3470 xbmt...   

Depending on who you ask, the suggestion that fining lager with gelatin might be a "gimme" could yield death threats

I've made plenty of lagers without fining, they do eventually drop brite, but nowhere near as quickly as with gelatin.

[zwiller]

German tradition states that no fining agents be used in lager production.

With that being said, I don't think one needs to use fining agents to produce a clear lager. If you decide to go this route, an extended cold crash period prior to packaging may be in order to accelerate the clearing of the beer during the lagering period.

I brew quite a bit of lagers and I do (for the most part) gel fine them.  I feel that it brilliantly clears up the beer very quickly and can even make the beer more drinkable, earlier.

Thanks, Touche' on the time aspect.  I do believe however Germans get away with Polyclar as it is "removed".   

[hopfenundmalz]

German tradition states that no fining agents be used in lager production.

With that being said, I don't think one needs to use fining agents to produce a clear lager. If you decide to go this route, an extended cold crash period prior to packaging may be in order to accelerate the clearing of the beer during the lagering period.

I brew quite a bit of lagers and I do (for the most part) gel fine them.  I feel that it brilliantly clears up the beer very quickly and can even make the beer more drinkable, earlier.

Thanks, Touche' on the time aspect.  I do believe however Germans get away with Polyclar as it is "removed".   

PVPP can be used as it has been proven that none is in the beer after filtration.

[Hand of Dom]

Do you think that the increased density of the large gelatin addition had any bearing on the fact that it all seemed to solidify, and not as much was available to clear the beer?  Would it be worth rerunning with the large addition diluted to the same percentage as your small addition?

Perhaps it doesn't come through in the pic, but the high amount solution was barely more viscous than the standard and incorporated well into the beer. Not sure if this addresses your concern, and either way, a dilution amount xBmt could be interesting!

Clearly something caused a large portion of the bigger dose to gelatinize without clearing the beer, and the beer was noticeably murkier.  To me, the density of the dose is an obvious parameter to investigate, if you wanted to understand the causes of the results found in this experiment.

[blair.streit]

Do you think that the increased density of the large gelatin addition had any bearing on the fact that it all seemed to solidify, and not as much was available to clear the beer?  Would it be worth rerunning with the large addition diluted to the same percentage as your small addition?

Perhaps it doesn't come through in the pic, but the high amount solution was barely more viscous than the standard and incorporated well into the beer. Not sure if this addresses your concern, and either way, a dilution amount xBmt could be interesting!

Thanks again for posting and doing these.  Semi OT - seeing alot of you are lager brewers, is it pretty much a "gimme" that you need to fine lagers?  My ales end up bright on their own but my recent lager I did is still very hazy about a month on tap (3470).  That's very unusual for me but I am just getting into lagers thanks to the higher temp 3470 xbmt...   

Depending on who you ask, the suggestion that fining lager with gelatin might be a "gimme" could yield death threats

I've made plenty of lagers without fining, they do eventually drop brite, but nowhere near as quickly as with gelatin.

Agree - this is one of those things that gets some people riled up. I'm not convinced of a particular "right" way to do it, but in my experience gelatin fining has been able to give me at least most of the things I'm able to achieve in a traditional "lagering" period, but in less time. YMMV and I certainly haven't organized large sensory panels to confirm that.

There's some great info about flocculation characteristics from the Wyeast site here:

https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_clarification.cfm

Unfortunately there's a fair amount of it that I don't understand, and what I do understand basically suggests that manipulating any variable (oxygen, temperature, etc) can either get you the desired result, or possibly the opposite. I think their conclusion sums it up best:

Conclusion:

Flocculation is one of the most complex and least understood mechanisms that yeast have. It is very difficult to determine exactly why a yeast strain has had a change in flocculation characteristics. Good and consistent record keeping combined with good and consistent yeast handling and brewing techniques will minimize the number of unknown factors affecting yeast.

[beersk]

Do you think that the increased density of the large gelatin addition had any bearing on the fact that it all seemed to solidify, and not as much was available to clear the beer?  Would it be worth rerunning with the large addition diluted to the same percentage as your small addition?

Perhaps it doesn't come through in the pic, but the high amount solution was barely more viscous than the standard and incorporated well into the beer. Not sure if this addresses your concern, and either way, a dilution amount xBmt could be interesting!

Clearly something caused a large portion of the bigger dose to gelatinize without clearing the beer, and the beer was noticeably murkier.  To me, the density of the dose is an obvious parameter to investigate, if you wanted to understand the causes of the results found in this experiment.

Agreed. Something is weird about that, like the gelatin wasn't fully dissolved when it was put into the fermenter. I've had beers clear super fast and brite with a tablespoon in 200mL of water heated to 165F to dissolve.

[zwiller]

I know gelatine gets all the love and I attest it works well and is cheaper, I prefer the effects of polyclar over gelatine.  Dare I say it is super-gelatine, as in, if you like gelatine you will love polyclar.  The effect it has on polyphenols cannot be understated.  A gelatine vs polyclar would be an interesting shootout. 

[beersk]

I know gelatine gets all the love and I attest it works well and is cheaper, I prefer the effects of polyclar over gelatine.  Dare I say it is super-gelatine, as in, if you like gelatine you will love polyclar.  The effect it has on polyphenols cannot be understated.  A gelatine vs polyclar would be an interesting shootout. 

Effects on polyphenols? Can you elaborate on that?

[brewinhard]

I know gelatine gets all the love and I attest it works well and is cheaper, I prefer the effects of polyclar over gelatine.  Dare I say it is super-gelatine, as in, if you like gelatine you will love polyclar.  The effect it has on polyphenols cannot be understated.  A gelatine vs polyclar would be an interesting shootout. 

Effects on polyphenols? Can you elaborate on that?

Pulls out hop proteins and tannins perhaps that can be percieved as astringent?

[zwiller]

I know gelatine gets all the love and I attest it works well and is cheaper, I prefer the effects of polyclar over gelatine.  Dare I say it is super-gelatine, as in, if you like gelatine you will love polyclar.  The effect it has on polyphenols cannot be understated.  A gelatine vs polyclar would be an interesting shootout. 

Effects on polyphenols? Can you elaborate on that?

Pulls out hop proteins and tannins perhaps that can be percieved as astringent?

^That's the blue pill. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiZ5uuor6_MAhVMWx4KHUjXCD0QFghMMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agraria.com.br%2Fextranet%2Farquivos%2Fagromalte_arquivo%2Fpvpp_na_cerveja_-_ing.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFSInbIBAEtSMRUSnrvi5V5vlFxTw&bvm=bv.120551593,d.dmo

[HoosierBrew]

I know gelatine gets all the love and I attest it works well and is cheaper, I prefer the effects of polyclar over gelatine.  Dare I say it is super-gelatine, as in, if you like gelatine you will love polyclar.  The effect it has on polyphenols cannot be understated.  A gelatine vs polyclar would be an interesting shootout. 

Do you feel that the polyclar strips away malt/hop character more so than gelatin (assuming not)? It's been years ago but I used polyclar a couple times at the dose recommended on the package and felt that it stripped away some body from the beer. It was a recipe I had brewed before and knew what to expect. What amount do you use, out of curiosity?

[zwiller]

Strip is a strong word, but yes, polyclar affects beer flavor more than gelatin IMO.  However, I like what it does.  It is one more thing that takes my homebrew to another level.  In my beers, it tends to actually bring the malt character forward by getting rid of some roughness of the hops.  Dosing varies as it depends on gravity and hop bill but on average I am at 4g for 5G on typical stuff.  Higher for higher gravity/IPA. 

[HoosierBrew]

Strip is a strong word, but yes, polyclar affects beer flavor more than gelatin IMO.  However, I like what it does.  It is one more thing that takes my homebrew to another level.  In my beers, it tends to actually bring the malt character forward by getting rid of some roughness of the hops.  Dosing varies as it depends on gravity and hop bill but on average I am at 4g for 5G on typical stuff.  Higher for higher gravity/IPA. 

Cool, thanks for the info. I haven't used it in 15 yrs or so, but I used the amount called for on the label and definitely felt it stripped flavor. BUT I suspect that the amount was a good bit more than you used. If I can find the old brewing journal with my notes, I'll post what I used. I use Biofine Clear now on occasion (aside from gelatin), and it works on the principle that you use as little as possible to get good results, because at higher levels there can be some loss of flavor. I'm betting the same would apply to Polyclar and that I just didn't realize it back then.

[kgs]

If I read the posts correctly, in the first experiment the gelatin was added when the beer was 50 degrees f, and in the second, the beer was 32 degrees f. Could the lower temperature have played a role in creating the blob of coagulated gelatin shown on the side of the carboy?

Not relevant to these two experiments, but I would wager that gelatin would perform less satisfactorily as a fining aid when fresh (unboiled) fruit puree from figs, kiwi fruit, papaya, pineapple and prickly pears is used, as "These enzymes have a softening effect on gelatine and prevent it from gelling properly" ( http://www.knoxgelatine.com/basics.htm ).

Good experiments!

[BrewBama]

I believe lower temps help gelatin fining. I get mine to ~34*F before I add the finings and it works every time. ...but I've not used it with a bunch of fruit and stuff in the beer -- just yeast.

....A gelatine vs polyclar would be an interesting shootout.

+1

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