[brewinhard]

I don't understand the resistance to the type of purging mentioned. It takes zero money to try and uses less gas than burping a keg at high pressure. I've been purging this way for years.

You mean, filling a keg with star san and pushing it to other kegs with CO2 (and then a bucket)?  That's what I do.

Is this what everyone here is referring to or something else?

 I push full keg of sanitizer out, then close transfer beers from primary with CO2 into out post of keg.  I have noticed solid improvements with regards to oxidation when doing this.

[blair.streit]

Brewing a German Pils with my new sack of Barke malt on Sunday.  Wish I had some brewtan... Denny, why weren't you handing out little ziplock baggies of it at the conference?  I'm sure the TSA wouldn't have thought that odd.

I doubt they would notice or care.

I work for a company that makes battery powered tracking devices. For years I travelled through airports with prototypes that looked like bombs (exposed wires, etc). Nobody batted an eye and out of 20 such trips I think I was only even once asked what it was (the guy was just curious).

One of those trips I forgot to take my large shampoo bottle out of my shaving kit. That nearly resulted in a cavity search.

[wobdee]

Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

I doubt it. I strongly recommend that you review that seminar and you will see that it doesn't have to be too much of a pain.

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

I'd have to check with Joe to be certain, but I believe it does.

While your at it ask him if there's a recommended dosage per gal and if it's calculated by final amount of beer or total mash/sparge water amount if you don't mind.

[HoosierBrew]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

[brewinhard]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Thanks Jon. Another data point would be great.  Looking to hear if this improves malt flavor and maintains freshness longer.

[HoosierBrew]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Thanks Jon. Another data point would be great.  Looking to hear if this improves malt flavor and maintains freshness longer.

Yeah, that's what I'm looking to see. I want to judge clarity using it (Denny says his wort was much clearer), both in wort and the final product. And then I want to judge if there's actual improvement in malt character/overall beer character, and finally judge later on if shelf life is improved.

[hopfenundmalz]

and even clearing tubing of air before transfers.

Hmm? I didn't think of that. I guess you blow some CO2 through the hose first?

How do you accomplish that with your system? I can't see an easy way, off hand.

I fill it with beer, run some into an empty keg that will get dumped and cleaned. Vinnie C. Said that one would not transfer the air in the hoses into the next vessel. Or something like that.

[beersk]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Wow, that took long enough... looking forward to your results.

On the shelf stability note, I usually drink my beers in about 4 weeks after kegging, so I'm not overly worried about oxidation. Rather, once they're tapped, it takes about 4 weeks to drink them. I usually give them 2-3 weeks to carbonate. But there is always room for improvement.

[HoosierBrew]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Wow, that took long enough... looking forward to your results.

On the shelf stability note, I usually drink my beers in about 4 weeks after kegging, so I'm not overly worried about oxidation. Rather, once they're tapped, it takes about 4 weeks to drink them. I usually give them 2-3 weeks to carbonate. But there is always room for improvement.

Yeah, definitely not gonna make any big pronouncements right away. It'll obviously take a while to judge shelf life. Not so long on beer quality.  Can't help but think that if the macros justify spending $$ to use it, there must be some benefit. Time will tell.

[AmandaK]

Puge the kegs by pushing sanitizer, closed transfers from conical to keg, and even clearing tubing of air before transfers. All that to drink Pilsners in the summer. 

Aaaannd now I'm thirsty. Thanks Jeff! 

[RPIScotty]

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

Is the idea that yeast suspended in beer can scavenge oxygen in bottled beer now bunk? This is the most commonly stated theory. Thus, beer bottled off a keg that's been fined is suspect to quicker oxidation due to very little yeast being left in suspension. Or I thought that was the idea...

Always has been IMO.  It's pure speculation.  In reality, there isn't enough fermentation going on for that to happen.

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

Kind of like a mini-single serve keg but without the multiple points of oxygen ingress.

[mabrungard]

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

That would help prevent additional future oxidation, but it still wouldn't correct existing and previous oxidation damage. It still appears prudent to take measures to prevent all cold-side oxidation. 

[RPIScotty]

You would get an oxygen scavenging effect if, rather than say Spunding in the keg, you bottled off the fermentor at a calculated gravity and allowed the beer to naturally carbonate in the bottle by reaching terminal gravity. You would have active fermentation at that point.

That would help prevent additional future oxidation, but it still wouldn't correct existing and previous oxidation damage. It still appears prudent to take measures to prevent all cold-side oxidation.

Yes. My assumption was that packaging was the weak point.

[Phil_M]

Here's why I'm having a hard time getting on the LODO bandwagon: Don't many historical styles include slight oxidation? Case in point: cask ale. Isn't it considered at it's "peak" when oxidized slightly? Or the Museums- und Traditionsbrauerei Wippra that Kai details:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Museums-_und_Traditionsbrauerei_Wippra

Lots of HSA there.

I guess I can see why you'd want to do LODO for some beers. "IT", an edge for a competition, something that's going to take a long time to drink, etc. But just as diacetyl is appropriate in small amounts in some beers, oxygenation can be appropriate at small levels as well.

By all means though, brew however and with whatever you need to in order to get the results you want. I'm just having a harder time getting worked up over LODO. If I find I need to do that to get the famous "IT" in my lagers, I might. But my British-style beers? I'm really not worried about it at all.

[ynotbrusum]

I spoke briefly with a chemist and of course he recommended nitrogen flushing throughout the process to be certain O2 is minimized, but I think I am just going to try a batch using: for cold side a Star San purge of kegs on filling, but on the hot side, underletting the mash with strike water after boiling (same with sparge), light stirring of the mash, with a CO2 cap added, no-splash transfer to boil kettle and lighter boil rate.  If these show improvement, I may seek the SMBS and/or Brewtan B additive in the pre-mash to further tweak the hot side process.  If the oxidation occurs on the hot side as fast as it is claimed to occur, then I don't see how the chemical additives will prevent the issue from arising, unless added to the process at the very start - is that what is being done?

How will the RIMS folks keep O2 from entering the mash?  Won't the amount of typical surface activity during recirc cause some O2 uptake?  With the Z - shouldn't it be purged of O2 in each of its containers? (I admit I haven't studied the Z and its process at all).

I look forward to tapping Joe Formanek for some of this stuff, if he can get me a "sample" to try.