[dilluh98]

I might be mistaken but I thought pretty much every LHBS carried SMB. It's easier and cheaper to acquire than brewtan. 

Yes, but it appears to be only a part of the process while Brewtan is the whole thing.

Brewtan doesn't directly scavenge O2, correct? Then it is not "the whole thing."

[dmtaylor]

Everything I've heard implies it's an all or nothing thing.

Leave it to us Americans -- and Aussies! -- to figure out all the shortcuts that work best. 

It's not shortcuts.  I am a firm believer in kaizen process improvement methods. The idea is incremental changes toward improvements.

Semantics.

[Big Monk]

Brewtan has benefits outside of the Low O2 but is not in any way a substitute.

Which may not be a bad thing. It just isn't a bridge to, or replacement for Low O2.

[ParanoidAndroid10]

In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions

[Joe Sr.]

Brewtan has benefits outside of the Low O2 but is not in any way a substitute.

Which may not be a bad thing. It just isn't a bridge to, or replacement for Low O2.

You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

[denny]

Brewtan doesn't directly scavenge O2, correct? Then it is not "the whole thing."

I guess I wasn't clear.  I wasn't referring to the effects, I was referring to the process.  And does it matter if it scavenges oxygen of the result is the same in terms of flavor?

[dilluh98]

Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

[denny]

You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

Thanks, Joe.

[ParanoidAndroid10]

Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

[Joe Sr.]

You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

Thanks, Joe.

Sure.  But to be completely fair, I don't know that the results really are the same.  I guess that's one of the reasons why you're running your experiment.  It may be that the combination of the two is really where it's at.  Or not.  These days, most of my batches get consumed quickly at parties, so shelf stability is not an issue for me.  Brewing better beer is always good, but I also don't need to be the best, which I guess puts me in the camp of if Brewtan does something to help and it's super easy, that might be enough for me.

[dmtaylor]

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

Ah, the classic Pareto theorum.  Cool.  You may be right.

[dilluh98]

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Likewise. But as a scientist, comparing the two methods and testing them should help clarify how much "coverage" brewtan provides.

[zwiller]

In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions

The force is strong with this one.  L-cysteine promotes thicker hair and is also used for, get this: preventing hangovers! 

[HoosierBrew]

In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions

Hmm, appears that the two most effective were ascorbic acid and SMB. Maybe I wasn't out to lunch on ascorbic for kegging after all, as many breweries have used it.

[The Beerery]

I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.