Author Topic: Brewtan B  (Read 108004 times)

Big Monk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #690 on: October 14, 2016, 05:38:53 am »
Sulfate and sulfite are two different things, but related.  SMB is sulfite, and steals oxygen to form sulfate.

You may be right on the sodium.  I'd reduce any sodium chloride or baking soda additions if using a lot of SMB.  And, maybe we don't want to use "a lot" either.  This forms part of my skepticism of its use.  Not to mention other chemicals like Brewtan / tannic acid -- what else is it doing to flavor that we don't yet understand.

Where's Martin...

If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

A safe assumption is to use the parameters the paper details (0.1 pH Δ, 76 ppm SO4, 24 ppm Na) and scale them as dose rate is reduced. Hard coding this into BW or writing your own water spreadsheet would help.

EDIT: highlighted text was changed from produced to reduced.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 06:20:20 am by Big Monk »

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #691 on: October 14, 2016, 06:16:45 am »
The extra SMB provides the neutralization capacity for subsequent oxygen uptake. The art of the matter is determining how much extra SMB you need in your system to provide adequate protection. Sure, 100 ppm SMB is probably a safe starting point, but it comes with an increased cost in terms of Na and SO4 content. Some brewers on the German forum have been experimenting with lower dosage, including me.

In my opinion, modest Na content in beer does not produce a really detrimental taste effect. If you can keep that below 50 ppm, it should be OK for virtually all styles. You shouldn't taste it as salty, but it could have a sweetening effect.
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Offline toby

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #692 on: October 14, 2016, 08:05:08 am »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

That's honestly my biggest concern in following both of these types of threads (brewtan and low DO).  I use tap water due to the way my system is set up (all gravity and lifting that much bottled RO is not an option).  Since my water source is a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, the water is practically bereft of other minerals, but 75-100 ppm sodium.  For dark beers, it works great, but for pale beers, raising the sodium much would likely be detrimental.

Big Monk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #693 on: October 14, 2016, 08:07:22 am »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

That's honestly my biggest concern in following both of these types of threads (brewtan and low DO).  I use tap water due to the way my system is set up (all gravity and lifting that much bottled RO is not an option).  Since my water source is a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, the water is practically bereft of other minerals, but 75-100 ppm sodium.  For dark beers, it works great, but for pale beers, raising the sodium much would likely be detrimental.

The full dose rate (100 ppm) would add an additional 24 ppm Na. It would of course be reduced as you reduce the dose rate.

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #694 on: October 14, 2016, 09:22:25 am »
If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

That is a helpful reference point.  Thank you.  I'm sure I can cut out oxygen in minor ways.  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.
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The Beerery

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #695 on: October 14, 2016, 09:43:51 am »
If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.

Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #696 on: October 14, 2016, 09:51:17 am »
Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 


Bryan, slight derail - do you have trouble with getting your water profiles right in low O2 brewing?  I know the paper suggests not adding more sulfate and relying on CaCl2 for Ca content. Makes me think of German Pils where I personally prefer a dry finish that accentuates the hop profile. Is the sulfate presence from the SMB dose sufficient there? Is it too assertive in styles where only a low-moderate sulfate presence is desired?
Jon H.

The Beerery

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #697 on: October 14, 2016, 09:55:10 am »
If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.

Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 


If it helps at all, I would say that 100ppm is an INTRODUCTORY dose rate, i.e. you haven't made system changes to increase "tightness" (reduced O2 ingress from process points).

  Just don't know how effective my methods would be without trying real hard, since I'm cheap 'n' lazy.

Well unfortunately, zee Germans are neither of those, so creating these beers with that mentality may be fruitless. Think about it this way... If this was either cheap, easy, both, or any other variation of the present plethora of methods. This conversation would not be taking place. 


Bryan, slight derail - do you have trouble with getting your water profiles right in low O2 brewing?  I know the paper suggests not adding more sulfate and relying on CaCl2 for Ca content. Makes me think of German Pils where I personally prefer a dry finish that accentuates the hop profile. Is the sulfate presence from the SMB dose sufficient there? Is it too assertive in styles where only a low-moderate sulfate presence is desired?

Much like the breweries, I have one water profile I use regardless of style. Its my "house water". Its roughly 44ca, 3mg, 35na, 35so4, 80 cl. I only add CACL to my water(RO). I use proper attenuation to accent hops, not salts.


Edit: I only consume 10ppm of nameta, in process.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 09:59:02 am by The Beerery »

Offline zwiller

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #698 on: October 14, 2016, 10:05:46 am »
It appears to be potentially useful for hangovers, but I don't think it has ben proven in humans.  The way it works in possibly preventing is interesting.  It helps metabolize acetaldehyde (aka the green apple off flavor in beer) to acetic acid (the main ingredient in vinegar) which is harmless to us, but also another off flavor caused by an infection.

I said that mainly for mostly comedic reasons.  The use in bread making has blown my mind.  Easy enough to find too.  Are knowledgeable enough to work a dose for brewing?  Looks like the study used a molar rate. 
Sam
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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #699 on: October 14, 2016, 10:08:32 am »
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?
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Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #700 on: October 14, 2016, 10:09:33 am »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

I have the same thought.
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The Beerery

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #701 on: October 14, 2016, 10:10:42 am »
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?

Yup.

Big Monk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #702 on: October 14, 2016, 10:11:39 am »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

I have the same thought.

Why would you need anything higher than 100 ppm? That's the question to ask yourself. 24 ppm of Na is added for 100 ppm/l dose rate of SMB. It only decreases as you descrease your dose rate and tighten up your system.

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #703 on: October 14, 2016, 10:12:22 am »
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

Have you done a side by side blind tasting?

Yup.

Just you? 
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The Beerery

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #704 on: October 14, 2016, 10:16:21 am »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

I have the same thought.

Why would you need anything higher than 100 ppm? That's the question to ask yourself. 24 ppm of Na is added for 100 ppm/l dose rate of SMB. It only decreases as you descrease your dose rate and tighten up your system.

24ppm of the 100ppm dose rate, is not going to have a noticeable effect on the beer. Some german beers exhibit 3x that much in pale lagers(although you can CERTAINLY taste it at that point).

I would strongly advise against the usage of meta for de-oxygenation of tap water.