[hopfenundmalz]

Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!

Interesting... I vaguely remember that many people, likely on this forum, were saying that after 5-6 flushes of CO2 that it effectively didn't matter. Probably just a couple of years ago or less.

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

I'm about to buy a DO meter.

You need many purges at high pressure (30 PSIG) to get to the levels we want for low O2.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=23682.msg302849#msg302849

[majorvices]

I just ordered 20 lbs of this stuff and when I saw the price I remembered why I stopped using it. Ouch! It costs me nearly $500 bucks for 20 lbs. I'll give it another whirl though to see if it makes any difference.

[blair.streit]

Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!

Interesting... I vaguely remember that many people, likely on this forum, were saying that after 5-6 flushes of CO2 that it effectively didn't matter. Probably just a couple of years ago or less.

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

I'm about to buy a DO meter.

When considering the Zymatic, one thing that crossed my mind was suspended trub and its potential impact on flavor stability. I seem to recall that there's a screen to hold back trub during chilling. I wonder if there are any process variables that could allow enough trub to get through that it would become a stability concern.

On the other hand, Annie is famous for Pils so I would imagine if there was a concern there she would know about it.

[AmandaK]

When considering the Zymatic, one thing that crossed my mind was suspended trub and its potential impact on flavor stability. I seem to recall that there's a screen to hold back trub during chilling. I wonder if there are any process variables that could allow enough trub to get through that it would become a stability concern.

The wort coming out of the Z is so clear I can read a newspaper through it.

On the other hand, Annie is famous for Pils so I would imagine if there was a concern there she would know about it.

Exactly, which is why I'm "talking it out" in a way, so other people can help me find what is different/wrong in my process - because just me thinking about it in a circle has gotten me nowhere. It should also be noted that I'm an engineer and a perfectionist. These "flaws" I'm talking about have barely been noticed by anyone else and I've won many medals with the Z brewed beers (and two commercial scale ups!). I'm just nit-picking to nit-pick. 

[wobdee]

We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Crashed the pils on Sun.  On my way to take a gravity sample now and I'll taste it later after I get done with my editing.

How'd your sample turn out?

[denny]

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

Is the idea that yeast suspended in beer can scavenge oxygen in bottled beer now bunk? This is the most commonly stated theory. Thus, beer bottled off a keg that's been fined is suspect to quicker oxidation due to very little yeast being left in suspension. Or I thought that was the idea...

Always has been IMO.  It's pure speculation.  In reality, there isn't enough fermentation going on for that to happen.

[denny]

We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Crashed the pils on Sun.  On my way to take a gravity sample now and I'll taste it later after I get done with my editing.

How'd your sample turn out?

I think it's too soon to say for sure, but at a guess the Brewtan sample _may_ be _very slightly_ clearer and have a better malt flavor.  But nothing definitive at this point.  The Rye IPA, OTOH, definitely exhibited more clarity and flavor than I recall as normal.  But there was no side by sode done on that one.

[beersk]

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed 

I do this. It's so slow if using gravity.

As far as wasting water, use starsan in the final sanitation and push it into a bucket for saving. Better yet push it into another clean keg and leave it there.

I definitely sanitize multiple kegs at once.

Also, use more gravity.

Not sure how well this would work with a bucket/auto syphon... If I end up getting a SS brewbucket, I'll be doing the closed transfer thing with a gas jumper going from the keg back to the fermenter for the closed transfer.

[mabrungard]

AHA members that didn't attend this session at the 2016 conference should review this seminar online: Identifying and Avoiding Oxidation It provides great guidance on how to implement oxygenless cold side beer transfers.

It may be a few weeks until that seminar is posted on the AHA website, but it is worth your review.

[wobdee]

Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

[HoosierBrew]

Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

That's my hope, too.

[hopfenundmalz]

AHA members that didn't attend this session at the 2016 conference should review this seminar online: Identifying and Avoiding Oxidation It provides great guidance on how to implement oxygenless cold side beer transfers.

It may be a few weeks until that seminar is posted on the AHA website, but it is worth your review.

He reviewed best practices from start to finish. Good presentation.

[mabrungard]

Isn't Brewtan suppose to help with the cold side oxidation? It would be nice if we didn't have to go to all the trouble of closed transfers if Brewtan eliminated the need.

I doubt it. I strongly recommend that you review that seminar and you will see that it doesn't have to be too much of a pain.

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

[HoosierBrew]

Looking forward to seeing the presentation posted.

[toby]

I spent a few minutes figuring out how to do it with my system and implemented it in a day. The keg purging method adds almost no time to your day. I should have been doing it all along, but I didn't think that cold-side oxidation was that big of a problem...I was wrong.

Yeah, I've been doing the keg purge trick for years.  I find it extends the 'shelf life' even in the hoppy beers.  I've had hoppy beers that still popped after 3 or 4 months even at ambient temps (I've gotten 2 years easily out of big beers).  I forgot a keg in the storage room after a beer festival with about a gallon of EKG IPA left in it.  Went to grab it to transfer sanitizer to it since I thought it was empty and found liquid in it.  Poured it into a pitcher to see what it was and then remembered.  Unfortunately it was only me and one other guy there that liked British IPAs, so we wound up drinking it over the course of the brew day.