Author Topic: Brewtan B  (Read 105713 times)

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2016, 11:33:17 am »
We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Offline wobdee

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2016, 11:33:34 am »
I'd be curious to know if there's an amount per gal or liter they recommend for homebrewers for both mashing and boil? I know Denny said 1/4 TSP mash and 1/2 TSP boil but it also depends on how you brew, thick or thin mash, sparge or no sparge, batch size, lots of variables.

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2016, 12:01:37 pm »
Aww, I'm honored that I was missed.  :) I will be at NHC 2017 in MN. It's only a 6 hour drive from KC!

I "ordered" it from National Homebrew, but they didn't take any payment info. Rather strange. Anyway, I've reached out to my LHBS to see if I can get a giant thing of it for the club. If it's only on the Wyeast commercial side, I'll hit up a few pro-brewer friends to see if they can snag it. (Edit: it is only commercial - dang)

Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2. (And our bottled beers have the same issue.) I closed transfer. The recipes are all similar before and after the brewery switch. I'm even lowering my pH to the low 4's to help stability and they just go oxidized anyway. I'm at a loss. Surely it's not the brewery itself, but I can't think of anything else.

I have one beer that I've made EXACTLY the same on both systems - our BGSA that's in Denny's book. The one we brewed back in 2014 for the wedding on the Sabco shows less age than the same beer, brewed at the end of 2015 on the Zymatic. Same recipe. Both were bottled. Same numbers in every aspect of the beers. Only the brewery changed. I don't get it.

So anyway, Brewtan-B is my next step. And maybe building a low-O2 brewery out of the kettles and parts I have laying around.

Disclaimer: I'm the only one that notices the oxidation in my beers. Never gotten a scoresheet back that had it on there (but then again, I'm not entering the crappy ones! ha) so I may just be crazy. So YMMV.
Amanda Burkemper
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Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2016, 12:41:56 pm »
We should probably be hearing from Denny pretty soon after his pilsner experiments, yes?

Crashed the pils on Sun.  On my way to take a gravity sample now and I'll taste it later after I get done with my editing.
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Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2016, 12:44:04 pm »
I'd be curious to know if there's an amount per gal or liter they recommend for homebrewers for both mashing and boil? I know Denny said 1/4 TSP mash and 1/2 TSP boil but it also depends on how you brew, thick or thin mash, sparge or no sparge, batch size, lots of variables.

The only one of those variables that matters is batch size.  Why would you think any of those other things mattered?  The amount I posted IS what they recommend for a 54 gal. batch.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline wobdee

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2016, 12:57:35 pm »
I'd be curious to know if there's an amount per gal or liter they recommend for homebrewers for both mashing and boil? I know Denny said 1/4 TSP mash and 1/2 TSP boil but it also depends on how you brew, thick or thin mash, sparge or no sparge, batch size, lots of variables.

The only one of those variables that matters is batch size.  Why would you think any of those other things mattered?  The amount I posted IS what they recommend for a 54 gal. batch.
I'm not sure if it matters or not but if your brewing BIAB your using more water in your mash than a traditional all grain sparge. Maybe that 1/4 TSP should be increased in that case?

Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2016, 01:32:50 pm »
I'm not sure if it matters or not but if your brewing BIAB your using more water in your mash than a traditional all grain sparge. Maybe that 1/4 TSP should be increased in that case?

In speaking with the guy from the company, the only variable he mentioned is batch size.  He didn't ask me about my mash ratio or sparge technique.  I have to assume, then, that those don't matter.  It's not the amount of water, it's the amount of beer apparently.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2016, 01:57:36 pm »
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!
Martin B
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2016, 02:23:22 pm »
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!

Interesting... I vaguely remember that many people, likely on this forum, were saying that after 5-6 flushes of CO2 that it effectively didn't matter. Probably just a couple of years ago or less.

Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

I'm about to buy a DO meter.
Amanda Burkemper
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Offline beersk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2016, 02:34:35 pm »
Denny - I'll hit up Annie. I may be crazy (and that's a huge possibility), but I believe that the stability of the beers I've brewed this year with the Z are pretty poor compared with the stability of the beers I've brewed on my other systems. I'm talking like Pilsners that hit all the numbers, taste great, and then 2 months later are crap. Just stale. Maybe it has something to do with 2.5g batches in 5g kegs, but I'm flushing the piss outta them with CO2.

As presented in the seminar on Oxidation last week at Homebrew Con, filling a keg with sanitizer and forcing the sanitizer out with CO2 is the ONLY way to effectively reduce O2 in kegs to near zero. Reportedly, it would take something like 30 fill/flushes to accomplish the zero O2 level like you can achieve in one simple fill/flush with sanitizer. With all the headspace due to a smaller batch in a 5 gal keg, the oxidation potential should be much larger. That could explain your finding.

I found that sanitizer fill/flush method and results, so compelling, I did it for my latest batch transfer last night. After I had all the necessary connections and hoses, it was a breeze.

DO IT!
I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.
Jesse

Offline dilluh98

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2016, 02:37:33 pm »
Still doesn't explain the bottled beers though.

Is the idea that yeast suspended in beer can scavenge oxygen in bottled beer now bunk? This is the most commonly stated theory. Thus, beer bottled off a keg that's been fined is suspect to quicker oxidation due to very little yeast being left in suspension. Or I thought that was the idea...

Offline narvin

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2016, 02:57:44 pm »

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)

Offline Stevie

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2016, 03:05:56 pm »

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)
I do this. It's so slow if using gravity.

As far as wasting water, use starsan in the final sanitation and push it into a bucket for saving. Better yet push it into another clean keg and leave it there.

Offline narvin

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2016, 03:15:10 pm »

I've done this as well, I just hate how much water it wastes. And with an auto syphon filling through the opening of the keg, it's hard to accomplish 100% flushed with co2 anyway. I think it's less of a concern when filling the keg to just below the gas tube. But for closed transfers, it's a great idea.

Fill through the liquid out fitting, with the top closed  :)
I do this. It's so slow if using gravity.

As far as wasting water, use starsan in the final sanitation and push it into a bucket for saving. Better yet push it into another clean keg and leave it there.

I definitely sanitize multiple kegs at once.

Also, use more gravity.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 03:19:28 pm by narvin »

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2016, 03:33:58 pm »
Water it wastes? All my sanitizer went into a bucket for reuse. Definitely little, if any, waste.

Amanda, yes you can purge in fewer cycles, but it requires higher pressure. The bottom line is that you use a lot more CO2. Were your bottles filled from that keg? The beer would be pre-oxidized.

By the way, since my dip tube is shortened and I was therefore going to leave a nice little slug of sanitizer in the keg, I figured that by turning the keg upside down and just cracking the lid to let the sanitizer out would work. It definitely did and I'm pretty sure that little air entered.   
Martin B
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