[beersk]

Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in....

Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.

I preboiled and used 2 campden tablets in the mash and sparge water (15qt each). I think 2 campden tablets is about 100mg if I'm remembering correctly.
I read that removing the oxide layer with starsan is one thing, but it also lets more copper into the wort...so not sure it's necessarily beneficial as either way it can oxidize...I don't know. Hoping the SMB did some work there. But it's probably f*cked anyway since I didn't add the SMB until after the preboiled water was chilled to about 170F. I boiled for 5-7 minutes, vigorously.

Either way, I've never seen hot break like that before. I have to think that's a good sign...

[HoosierBrew]

Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in....

Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.

I preboiled and used 2 campden tablets in the mash and sparge water (15qt each). I think 2 campden tablets is about 100mg if I'm remembering correctly.
I read that removing the oxide layer with starsan is one thing, but it also lets more copper into the wort...so not sure it's necessarily beneficial as either way it can oxidize...I don't know. Hoping the SMB did some work there. But it's probably f*cked anyway since I didn't add the SMB until after the preboiled water was chilled to about 170F. I boiled for 5-7 minutes, vigorously.

Either way, I've never seen hot break like that before. I have to think that's a good sign...

I would think it's a good sign. Well regardless, I'm curious to see how these beers come out. If it's something I can do fairly easily, without much lost time, I'm on board!

[beersk]

Yeah, it only added about 30 minutes to my brew session...no big deal at all since I got used to doing the super long mashes for lagers (which I've since quit doing). If you get the water ready and boiling immediately after mashing in for the sparge, it's ready pretty much right when you need it for sparging.

[hopfenundmalz]

Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in....

Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

So you preboiled/chilled the mash and sparge waters. Did you use Campden? Low, short boil? Cap the mash? I ask because I purposely kept my routine the same while using the Brewtan, except that I soaked my copper IC in Starsan before adding to the kettle. It did appear to remove most of the oxide layer which I thought was the real offender with the copper. Curious to see how your beer, Denny's and mine come out.

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.

[HoosierBrew]

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.

Good info. I thought I'd read that the oxide layer was a big part of the problem as opposed to the actual copper. I stand corrected.

[beersk]

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.

Good info. I thought I'd read that the oxide layer was a big part of the problem as opposed to the actual copper. I stand corrected.

That is good info indeed. Thanks for posting, Jeff.

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller. I'm not in a rush, but it's on my list along with a SS brew bucket.
So far, after skimming the yeast and top cropping, this beer doesn't smell or seem any different than usual. So hard to tell at this stage though as it's only been 2 or 3 days since I pitched the yeast. Honestly, I'm not expecting it to be any different.

[HoosierBrew]

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.

I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.

[beersk]

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.

I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.

Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...

[HoosierBrew]

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.

I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.

Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...

I don't remember these being wit or hefe strains where sulfur is common at first. Maybe he'll chime in.

[beersk]

That's true. I've read on the GBF that people are getting sulfur but they don't say it's a huge amount or anything.

[hopfenundmalz]

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions (I am not a chemist, but that is what I have been reading). Bamforth in his last Beersmith podcast said they found that dry hopped beers have higher levels of Manganese, and that may be why dry hopped beers fall off quickly. They were going to look at Manganese levels in different hops.

Good info. I thought I'd read that the oxide layer was a big part of the problem as opposed to the actual copper. I stand corrected.

Both are issues, from what I can tell.

Edit - yeast like a little copper and zinc for their health.

Then there are the old small family breweries that still have copper kettles and copper cool ships (not for spontaneous fermentation, the wort is sent to the chiller at >60C). Some of those make fantastic beer.

[denny]

Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in....

Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

That's usually more of a sign of nailing your pH.

[denny]

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions

This has been a topic of discussion in the Brewtan thread on the Brews-Bros. forum.

[narvin]

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions

This has been a topic of discussion in the Brewtan thread on the Brews-Bros. forum.

Which is interesting, because I think the copper in the Belgian breweries is important for creating some of the mellow malt and hop flavors, the IT if you will, of their beers.  One man's trash...

[hopfenundmalz]

Transition metals such as copper, iron, manganese will act as catalysts for the oxidation reactions

This has been a topic of discussion in the Brewtan thread on the Brews-Bros. forum.

Which is interesting, because I think the copper in the Belgian breweries is important for creating some of the mellow malt and hop flavors, the IT if you will, of their beers.  One man's trash...

I have been told there is a lot of copper in the PU brewery, and they run off the lauter tuns via grants, so plenty of HSA. Never been, but hope to tour there soon.