[denny]

I posted this on another board and thought I would mention it here too... aside from the other changes I have made in my process (ss chiller instead of copper, larger mash volume and smaller sparge volume and conditioning my malt prior to milling), I have also been skipping the secondary.  For years I have gone primary -> secondary -> keg and it was an open transfer into a non-purged Better Bottle.  I now have the ability to purge a Better Bottle in case I ever have to use one but I suppose going from primary to a purged keg could have an impact on better beer as well.

Ken, I haven't used a secondary as a regular procedure for at least 10-12 years. 

[brewinhard]

+1 to no secondary. Closed transfers done directly from primary into keg for added protection.

[Village Taphouse]

I liked the idea of secondary for clarification.  I have also been brewing long enough that "secondary" was part of the standard homebrewing process when I started.  I liked to add gel solution and get the beer clear before I packaged it.  But I did hear from a number of people who said to ditch it.  Anyone want to buy some Better Bottles?!    Now I leave the beer in primary a little longer so things can settle.  Then I send the beer to a purged keg, get it cold, add gel solution and carb it.  First pint is usually tossed out as it has a lot of yeast in it.  Not sure if that one step could have an impact but I didn't mention it earlier.  Cheers.

[beersk]

I liked the idea of secondary for clarification.  I have also been brewing long enough that "secondary" was part of the standard homebrewing process when I started.  I liked to add gel solution and get the beer clear before I packaged it.  But I did hear from a number of people who said to ditch it.  Anyone want to buy some Better Bottles?!    Now I leave the beer in primary a little longer so things can settle.  Then I send the beer to a purged keg, get it cold, add gel solution and carb it.  First pint is usually tossed out as it has a lot of yeast in it.  Not sure if that one step could have an impact but I didn't mention it earlier.  Cheers.

Dumping in the gel solution is definitely adding O2 to the keg. I quit using it. I'm starting to wonder if why I'd notice my beers getting thinner tasting towards the end of the keg was because of oxidation. I thought it was the use of gelatin alone that did it, but might've oxidized the beer too.
I'm pretty much 10-14 days primary, then to keg. The last two beers I've kegged at about 7 days with a couple points of extract left and let sit for another week at ferm temp. The all Vienna malt pale that I did this with is very nice tasting. Interested to see how that will affect the shelf life. It came down two more points in the keg from 1.014 to 1.012. Have to think it consumed any residual O2 in the headspace after purging.

[denny]

Dumping in the gel solution is definitely adding O2 to the keg. I quit using it. I'm starting to wonder if why I'd notice my beers getting thinner tasting towards the end of the keg was because of oxidation. I thought it was the use of gelatin alone that did it, but might've oxidized the beer too.
I'm pretty much 10-14 days primary, then to keg. The last two beers I've kegged at about 7 days with a couple points of extract left and let sit for another week at ferm temp. The all Vienna malt pale that I did this with is very nice tasting. Interested to see how that will affect the shelf life. It came down two more points in the keg from 1.014 to 1.012. Have to think it consumed any residual O2 in the headspace after purging.

What's the mechanism for oxidation causing a thin taste?

[brewinhard]

Dumping in the gel solution is definitely adding O2 to the keg. I quit using it. I'm starting to wonder if why I'd notice my beers getting thinner tasting towards the end of the keg was because of oxidation. I thought it was the use of gelatin alone that did it, but might've oxidized the beer too.
I'm pretty much 10-14 days primary, then to keg. The last two beers I've kegged at about 7 days with a couple points of extract left and let sit for another week at ferm temp. The all Vienna malt pale that I did this with is very nice tasting. Interested to see how that will affect the shelf life. It came down two more points in the keg from 1.014 to 1.012. Have to think it consumed any residual O2 in the headspace after purging.

What's the mechanism for oxidation causing a thin taste?

Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

[denny]

Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.

[brewinhard]

I assume you are referring to a "thinner body" and not loss of malt flavors on this one?

[Village Taphouse]

I do think that oxidation scrubs out some amount of malt depth.  These brewtan beers seem to have more malt presence to me but honestly... I can't say any of this for sure.

[beersk]

Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.

Yeah, the beer just seems to get thin, but maybe it's not oxidation afterall? Perhaps it really is what I thought, which is that you can over-gel a beer and it'll drop out more proteins than desired, causing a thinner beer.

[swampale]

I have always wondered about oxidation when adding gelatin to my kegs, but I just add it as slowly as I can. I purge it right away with C02 though.

[denny]

Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.

Yeah, the beer just seems to get thin, but maybe it's not oxidation afterall? Perhaps it really is what I thought, which is that you can over-gel a beer and it'll drop out more proteins than desired, causing a thinner beer.

That has been frequently noted.  Why not do one without gelatin to compare?

[blair.streit]

I've had similar concerns about oxygen pickup when adding gelatin. It makes the beer super clear, but lately I've deferred to just putting more kegs in the conditioning fridge and letting actual time do the clarifying for me instead of using gelatin as "liquid time".

Without any empirical evidence, I'm guessing it's close to a wash. In my head anyway, the beers age better if I leave them alone, but taste better young if I fine them. Since I have the fridge space now I'll trade time for more work (at least until I find a reason to reverse myself).

[beersk]

Maybe referring to loss of malt flavors?

Could be.  I don't think I've ever noted that from oxidation, which is why I was interested in trying to figure it out.

Yeah, the beer just seems to get thin, but maybe it's not oxidation afterall? Perhaps it really is what I thought, which is that you can over-gel a beer and it'll drop out more proteins than desired, causing a thinner beer.

That has been frequently noted.  Why not do one without gelatin to compare?

Well, I've stopped using it and the problem has simply gone away.

[HoosierBrew]

I've had similar concerns about oxygen pickup when adding gelatin. It makes the beer super clear, but lately I've deferred to just putting more kegs in the conditioning fridge and letting actual time do the clarifying for me instead of using gelatin as "liquid time".

Without any empirical evidence, I'm guessing it's close to a wash. In my head anyway, the beers age better if I leave them alone, but taste better young if I fine them. Since I have the fridge space now I'll trade time for more work (at least until I find a reason to reverse myself).

I'm pretty careful with O2 pickup, but I do fine many beers with gelatin. I honestly don't feel like it's caused any noticeable oxidation in my beers or I'd have stopped using it. I always assumed that with the gelatin's purpose being to drop yeast out of suspension, those yeast are able to scavenge the O2 introduced from stirring in the gelatin. Maybe not. Then again I've been kegging with ascorbic acid for a year or two now, so in theory that should be offering protection, too.