Author Topic: Brewtan B  (Read 107818 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #270 on: August 30, 2016, 04:22:30 pm »
Another thought occurred to me today as I was sampling a new altbier I put on tap recently.  If my non-brewtan beers were oxidized and oxidation scrubs out malt depth, hops and flavor in general, I feel like I need to rebrew EVERYTHING so I can get a real taste of what I may have been missing.  My batches of helles have been outstanding and I have made numerous pale ales since using brewtan and all of them have been great.  I haven't made an alt in years but I was inspired to make one and although it's a little cloudy, it's unbelievably good.  I feel like I'm making beer that's much truer to style.  I feel slightly cheated that my past beers didn't have this level of malt character and flavor.  I have made brewtan pilsners, helles, pale ales, alt, amber lagers and a few others and they've all been stellar, IMO.  My next styles to tackle will be some English Pale Ales and Bitters made with English grains, hops and 1469.  I can't wait to see how they come out and I'm like a kid in a beer store all of a sudden!  :D
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Offline dilluh98

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #271 on: August 31, 2016, 05:46:03 am »
I only have two brewtan beers under my belt so far: a mild and a bitter. Both excellent - the mild in particular. As a bottler, I'm particularly interested to see if shelf life is improved. Beers don't stick around too often in my house but having them stay in their prime a bit longer would be a nice feature of using the product.

I'm not convinced this is magic fairy dust but I do think there's something to it. If the tannic acid can chelate (bind) metals that cause oxidation of malt-flavor compounds, rendering them inactive, that sounds like legitimate chemistry to this inorganic chemist.

Offline beersk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #272 on: August 31, 2016, 09:39:34 am »
I only have two brewtan beers under my belt so far: a mild and a bitter. Both excellent - the mild in particular. As a bottler, I'm particularly interested to see if shelf life is improved. Beers don't stick around too often in my house but having them stay in their prime a bit longer would be a nice feature of using the product.

I'm not convinced this is magic fairy dust but I do think there's something to it. If the tannic acid can chelate (bind) metals that cause oxidation of malt-flavor compounds, rendering them inactive, that sounds like legitimate chemistry to this inorganic chemist.
I don't think it's a magic fairy dust either. I'm still interested in whether it helps or not. What this does seem to confirm for me, though, is that people believe in Low DO, but aren't willing to publicly admit it. I just ordered a SS chiller, so that'll be the final piece. I used brewtan B on my latest batch in conjunction with low DO to see if it helps with using the copper chiller. Maybe, maybe not...the wort didn't seem different than usual.
I honestly think there's more merit to preboiling and using SMB, being careful of O2 pickup, than just using brewtan B and continuing to pour and splash at will. But it might turn out that both are bogus, so who knows. Can't hurt to try. What does hurt is to completely disregard it and make the same beer you always make...stubbornness to improve on one's processes is regression.
Jesse

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #273 on: August 31, 2016, 10:32:06 am »
Another thought occurred to me today as I was sampling a new altbier I put on tap recently.  If my non-brewtan beers were oxidized and oxidation scrubs out malt depth, hops and flavor in general, I feel like I need to rebrew EVERYTHING so I can get a real taste of what I may have been missing.  My batches of helles have been outstanding and I have made numerous pale ales since using brewtan and all of them have been great.  I haven't made an alt in years but I was inspired to make one and although it's a little cloudy, it's unbelievably good.  I feel like I'm making beer that's much truer to style.  I feel slightly cheated that my past beers didn't have this level of malt character and flavor.  I have made brewtan pilsners, helles, pale ales, alt, amber lagers and a few others and they've all been stellar, IMO.  My next styles to tackle will be some English Pale Ales and Bitters made with English grains, hops and 1469.  I can't wait to see how they come out and I'm like a kid in a beer store all of a sudden!  :D
Last Saturday I had Uerige, Sclüssel, and Schumacher, then back to Uerige. Malty flavors were more in Schlüssel and Schumacher. I got a little grape ester out of Schumacher. Noe were malt bombs by any means. When we got back to Uerige, it was obvious how bitter it was compared to the others, and not really all that malty. Bitterness was Uerige>Schumacher>Schlüssel. Malt was Schumacher, Schlüssel, Ürige.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #274 on: August 31, 2016, 11:29:30 am »
I don't think it's a magic fairy dust either. I'm still interested in whether it helps or not. What this does seem to confirm for me, though, is that people believe in Low DO, but aren't willing to publicly admit it. I just ordered a SS chiller, so that'll be the final piece. I used brewtan B on my latest batch in conjunction with low DO to see if it helps with using the copper chiller. Maybe, maybe not...the wort didn't seem different than usual.
I honestly think there's more merit to preboiling and using SMB, being careful of O2 pickup, than just using brewtan B and continuing to pour and splash at will. But it might turn out that both are bogus, so who knows. Can't hurt to try. What does hurt is to completely disregard it and make the same beer you always make...stubbornness to improve on one's processes is regression.


Not fairy dust for me by any means. But I think the reason you're not noticing much difference is that you're already experimenting with lodo practices. I wasn't yet - so I was still doing the pour and splash style brewing, and the difference there seems to be more noticeable. As said, I've done no triangle yet to confirm, but I think I'm right. My whole thing with the GBF lodo paper wasn't that it was crap, just that it's damn hard to implement to their specs of zero O2. Compared to what I was doing prior (nothing), the Brewtan seems to be a simple stab at reducing O2, or at least a starting point. Still may give some of your methods a try yet.
Jon H.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #275 on: August 31, 2016, 12:49:55 pm »
I don't think it's a magic fairy dust either. I'm still interested in whether it helps or not. What this does seem to confirm for me, though, is that people believe in Low DO, but aren't willing to publicly admit it. I just ordered a SS chiller, so that'll be the final piece. I used brewtan B on my latest batch in conjunction with low DO to see if it helps with using the copper chiller. Maybe, maybe not...the wort didn't seem different than usual.
I honestly think there's more merit to preboiling and using SMB, being careful of O2 pickup, than just using brewtan B and continuing to pour and splash at will. But it might turn out that both are bogus, so who knows. Can't hurt to try. What does hurt is to completely disregard it and make the same beer you always make...stubbornness to improve on one's processes is regression.


Not fairy dust for me by any means. But I think the reason you're not noticing much difference is that you're already experimenting with lodo practices. I wasn't yet - so I was still doing the pour and splash style brewing, and the difference there seems to be more noticeable. As said, I've done no triangle yet to confirm, but I think I'm right. My whole thing with the GBF lodo paper wasn't that it was crap, just that it's damn hard to implement to their specs of zero O2. Compared to what I was doing prior (nothing), the Brewtan seems to be a simple stab at reducing O2, or at least a starting point. Still may give some of your methods a try yet.
You.  Me.  Same page.  My guess is that someone who is already in tune with LODO practices is not going to get much out of brewtan because there isn't much FOR brewtan to do.  For someone like me (and apparently Hoosier), the difference can be very noticeable... and that's why some people might say IT'S MAGIC UNICORN DUST! and others might say IT'S NOTHING!  The different equipment and processes we use are going to dictate how much O2 pickup we get which is also going to dictate how much your beer may improve with brewtan.  Again, just a theory.
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline narvin

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #276 on: August 31, 2016, 03:24:45 pm »
At a homebrew scale you have more surface area at every stage of brewing and this generally means more oxygen exposure. So there is absolutely the potential for Brewtan B, SMB etc to make a noticeable difference, but how much remains to be seen.  Triangle tests are definitely in order.

However, given the number of German breweries I've seen with copper, I personally think it's silly to worry about that.  Unless you only like the beer made by the big breweries who have a Krones system, you're going against what empirical results show can make great beer.

My favorite is the direct fire mash tun here that has the copper chain to rake the bottom.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdf
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 03:26:24 pm by narvin »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #277 on: August 31, 2016, 04:49:10 pm »
At a homebrew scale you have more surface area at every stage of brewing and this generally means more oxygen exposure. So there is absolutely the potential for Brewtan B, SMB etc to make a noticeable difference, but how much remains to be seen.  Triangle tests are definitely in order.

However, given the number of German breweries I've seen with copper, I personally think it's silly to worry about that.  Unless you only like the beer made by the big breweries who have a Krones system, you're going against what empirical results show can make great beer.

My favorite is the direct fire mash tun here that has the copper chain to rake the bottom.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdf
I have seen that at Braürie Eck in Niederbayern. Saw a picture of the new Bierstadt Lagerhouse Denver's system that had that, it came from a closed German brewery.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #278 on: August 31, 2016, 05:12:51 pm »
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #279 on: September 01, 2016, 10:58:15 am »
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.

How do you keg your beers? I have found closed transfers from primary to keg to be the biggest help in terms of reducing oxidation in my final product. Hoping that through brewtan additions I can make it even better.

Offline beersk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #280 on: September 01, 2016, 03:14:58 pm »
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.

How do you keg your beers? I have found closed transfers from primary to keg to be the biggest help in terms of reducing oxidation in my final product. Hoping that through brewtan additions I can make it even better.
As does transferring to the keg a few points before final gravity is reached. That's been a huge improvement in my process, I feel.
Jesse

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #281 on: September 01, 2016, 03:23:54 pm »
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Sorry man! I have to give that one a try too.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #282 on: September 01, 2016, 04:25:00 pm »
I asked a few people who have been brewing beer for a long time about this and many of them deflected the idea of the brewtan but they did say that the work to try to lower O2-pickup in their brewing and not just after fermentation is complete.  My guess is that many homebrewers and also commercial breweries have O2 in mind when they brew and by the way their system is designed.  People who think about O2 pickup in advance probably make very good beer with their process.  Clearly I don't know for sure but my process and my old-school equipment must have been robbing my beer of malt depth and flavor.

How do you keg your beers? I have found closed transfers from primary to keg to be the biggest help in terms of reducing oxidation in my final product. Hoping that through brewtan additions I can make it even better.
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #283 on: September 01, 2016, 04:35:53 pm »
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.


FWIW, I've been adding ascorbic acid at kegging lately, in hopes of warding off final stage oxidation. In theory, if the Brewtan helps at the mash and boil stages and this helps at kegging, then I should at least be making a leap in O2 control in a simple way.
Jon H.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #284 on: September 01, 2016, 05:14:23 pm »
I used to use secondaries but I cut that part out.  I now to open transfers (I know, I know) from primary directly to a purged keg.  My hope is that the brewtan additions on brewday are protecting me from oxidation all along the way and anything else I can do (purge the keg prior to transfer) is a little additional insurance.  I do have a spunding valve but have not used it yet on a not-yet-fully-fermented beer.


FWIW, I've been adding ascorbic acid at kegging lately, in hopes of warding off final stage oxidation. In theory, if the Brewtan helps at the mash and boil stages and this helps at kegging, then I should at least be making a leap in O2 control in a simple way.
Sounds reasonable.  I know that some people are all over the closed transfers but I don't see it as necessary at this point... for me, anyway.  My guess is that the first shot of brewtan in the mash is meant to protect the beer for the brewday and the late addition is to protect the beer for the duration of its life.  Of course that's purely speculative but the two separate additions have me thinking this way.  I even came up with a plan to purge secondaries in case I ever needed extra storage space. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.