[wobdee]

I can see where a cold ferment schedule and spunding could be considered complicated with the extra equipment and timing involved. I haven't gotten to that part yet but have seen nice improvment in my lagers by incorporating whatever lodo techniques I can like preboiling, smb and brewtan.

[hopfenundmalz]

I can see where a cold ferment schedule and spunding could be considered complicated with the extra equipment and timing involved. I haven't gotten to that part yet but have seen nice improvment in my lagers by incorporating whatever lodo techniques I can like preboiling, smb and brewtan.

For my next round of lagers I will try the LODO and Brewtan (thanks Mac!). I have one spunding valve now, might get a second (or just tee 2 kegs to to one valve).

There are a few things I want to try, and those were reinforced touring breweries in Germany recently.

[Joe Sr.]

To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.

Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Pre-boiling sounds like a PITA, but no it's not complicated.  It seems like some of this is worth trying, whether I get around to it or not is a different question.  If Brewtan gets a similar result and is significantly easier, that might be the route to go.  I need a bigger chiller for my 10 gallon batches, so when I get it I'll probably go stainless.

Guys like RPIScotty, who were hugely skeptical of our LODO friends at the outset, have gone whole hog.  So there's something going on there to convert the skeptics.

I still don't buy the "you can't make good beer if you don't do it this way" dogma, but I'm not hearing so much of that anymore (maybe because those guys stay on their site).

[denny]

To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.

Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Seems as if there is more to than that.  And I don't want to do either of those things.  I have 5 chillers here already.

[natebriscoe]

To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.

Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Seems as if there is more to than that.  And I don't want to do either of those things.  I have 5 chillers here already.

Those are the main things. Malt conditioning isn't required, but sure makes for a smooth lauter. Spunding is the best way, but keg conditioned will hold up for a while. Ferment Ales just like you always would.
But with 5 chillers already, you probably should just dismiss lodo.

[beersk]

To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.

Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Yep, this is where I'm at. The beauty of a hobby like this is we can do it any way we choose; whatever gives us the results we want. But like brewing coffee, methods DO MATTER, it just depends on what you're after.

[denny]

Those are the main things. Malt conditioning isn't required, but sure makes for a smooth lauter. Spunding is the best way, but keg conditioned will hold up for a while. Ferment Ales just like you always would.
But with 5 chillers already, you probably should just dismiss lodo.

Also seems like I'd have to stop batch sparging.  When I see an advantage to LODO, and the advantage isn't outweighed by the PITA factor, I'll give it a try.  In the meantime, your snarkiness is doing nothing to convince me.

[natebriscoe]

To me, the process seems ridiculously complicated.  In addition, as far as we all know, the benefits are questionable.

Preboil water and buy a stainless chiller is too complicated?
Hey, I'm not here to sell lodo. Do it, don't do it, makes no difference to me. But if someone feels like they make good beer and it's just missing that something, it's worth looking into.
Cheers

Pre-boiling sounds like a PITA, but no it's not complicated.  It seems like some of this is worth trying, whether I get around to it or not is a different question.  If Brewtan gets a similar result and is significantly easier, that might be the route to go.  I need a bigger chiller for my 10 gallon batches, so when I get it I'll probably go stainless.

Guys like RPIScotty, who were hugely skeptical of our LODO friends at the outset, have gone whole hog.  So there's something going on there to convert the skeptics.

I still don't buy the "you can't make good beer if you don't do it this way" dogma, but I'm not hearing so much of that anymore (maybe because those guys stay on their site).

I wouldn't say you can't make good beer unless done this way, but I think you could possibly make even better with controlling mash oxygen.

[natebriscoe]

Those are the main things. Malt conditioning isn't required, but sure makes for a smooth lauter. Spunding is the best way, but keg conditioned will hold up for a while. Ferment Ales just like you always would.
But with 5 chillers already, you probably should just dismiss lodo.

Also seems like I'd have to stop batch sparging.  When I see an advantage to LODO, and the advantage isn't outweighed by the PITA factor, I'll give it a try.  In the meantime, your snarkiness is doing nothing to convince me.

Sorry for sounding snarky, just joking around.
No sparge is recommended  (an easier version of batch sparging, no?) With the 100ppm smb dose i think you can do it how ever you want. I fly sparged for a long while with smb, it worked fine.
Cheers

[Joe Sr.]

I wouldn't say you can't make good beer unless done this way, but I think you could possibly make even better with controlling mash oxygen.

You never said that.  It was others.  And it's always possible for me to make better beer.

[hopfenundmalz]

After three weeks in Germany, I have the conclusion that it depends. What beer is being brewed, on what system, and other factors. Helles, yeah LODO is great. A Dunkel, maybe not required.

I was at a brewpub that had copper vessels from what I could tell, pretty simple system. The Helles had an oxidized flavor, so there you go. The Mandarina Pils was good, I didn't detect that flavor. The export Dunkel was super, full of yummy Mailliard products.

[denny]

After three weeks in Germany, I have the conclusion that it depends. What beer is being brewed, on what system, and other factors. Helles, yeah LODO is great. A Dunkel, maybe not required.

I was at a brewpub that had copper vessels from what I could tell, pretty simple system. The Helles had an oxidized flavor, so there you go. The Mandarina Pils was good, I didn't detect that flavor. The export Dunkel was super, full of yummy Mailliard products.

Even if the Helles seemed oxidized, you'd have to do a lot of work to know if it was connected to the copper.  And why wouldn't it affect the other styles?  Dunno, but it seems like circumstantial evidence.

[hopfenundmalz]

After three weeks in Germany, I have the conclusion that it depends. What beer is being brewed, on what system, and other factors. Helles, yeah LODO is great. A Dunkel, maybe not required.

I was at a brewpub that had copper vessels from what I could tell, pretty simple system. The Helles had an oxidized flavor, so there you go. The Mandarina Pils was good, I didn't detect that flavor. The export Dunkel was super, full of yummy Mailliard products.

Even if the Helles seemed oxidized, you'd have to do a lot of work to know if it was connected to the copper.  And why wouldn't it affect the other styles?  Dunno, but it seems like circumstantial evidence.

Exactly, no argument. Copper, lots of splashing, do they mix the grist and liquor and drop from the top? Was the Helles old? I need to travel more and take more tours. ;-)

I have got that flavor before, at a larger brewery in the south of Bavaria. We went there for the view. Didn't see the brew house.

[denny]

Exactly, no argument. Copper, lots of splashing, do they mix the grist and liquor and drop from the top? Was the Helles old? I need to travel more and take more tours. ;-)

I have got that flavor before, at a larger brewery in the south of Bavaria. We went there for the view. Didn't see the brew house.

Which brings us back to Jethro's "The more I know about beer...", huh?

[hopfenundmalz]

Exactly, no argument. Copper, lots of splashing, do they mix the grist and liquor and drop from the top? Was the Helles old? I need to travel more and take more tours. ;-)

I have got that flavor before, at a larger brewery in the south of Bavaria. We went there for the view. Didn't see the brew house.

Which brings us back to Jethro's "The more I know about beer...", huh?

Exactly.

When we got to Augustener Keller, we shared a couple of Maß of the Helles. Super clean crisp malt flavor, only enough hops at the end to balance the malt. Hits the BJCP style guidelines on the nose for Munich Helles. We found it a little boring, after Ayinger, Schönram, and all of the Franconian Helles beers, which have a little more in the hop flavor, and often hop aroma.

Next time we might have to do our trip counter clockwise to see what we think!