[tommymorris]

One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.

[beersk]

One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.

Dude, no one said you had to do it. They just said it does make a difference. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.
In regards to all the gold medals, well, I don't know about that, just that we can only assume beers will get better with better brewing practices. Can't a craft evolve? There's a whole lot of resistance towards evolving ideas in this thread and with all this Low DO stuff. We have the power to evolve ideas, guys!

[tommymorris]

One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.

Dude, no one said you had to do it. They just said it does make a difference. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.
In regards to all the gold medals, well, I don't know about that, just that we can only assume beers will get better with better brewing practices. Can't a craft evolve? There's a whole lot of resistance towards evolving ideas in this thread and with all this Low DO stuff. We have the power to evolve ideas, guys!

Maybe it's harder to interpret written word versus spoken word, but I interpret a lot of these posts as "If your not trying LODO then you don't want to evolve therefore there is something wrong with you as a brewer and a person."

I am trying some, just not all LODO things.  I am evolving in my own terms.

[beersk]

One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.

Dude, no one said you had to do it. They just said it does make a difference. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.
In regards to all the gold medals, well, I don't know about that, just that we can only assume beers will get better with better brewing practices. Can't a craft evolve? There's a whole lot of resistance towards evolving ideas in this thread and with all this Low DO stuff. We have the power to evolve ideas, guys!

Maybe it's harder to interpret written word versus spoken word, but I interpret a lot of these posts as "If your not trying LODO then you don't want to evolve therefore there is something wrong with you as a brewer and a person."

I am trying some, just not all LODO things.  I am evolving in my own terms.

I didn't say not trying it is not evolving, just arguing so vehemently against it makes no sense to me. That, right there, is a stubbornness to evolve ideas.

[narvin]

I'll throw this out there, I have a theory that you DO need copper when making classic Belgian-styles.  I'd be interested to see if you notice any difference with your next Tripel, etc.  They benefit from micro-aeration all the way from the mash through the primary.  If you think it's hard to get the German IT flavor, even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.

[beersk]

...even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.

Agree 100%. I like American versions of Belgian beers even less than the American versions of German beers. But I'm not sure that copper is the answer for that or not.

[Phil_M]

Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O₂. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.

[reverseapachemaster]

Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O₂. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.

Cask ale doesn't fear oxygen but if the goal of the transfer into a purged keg is to avoid any oxygen exposure at that point then I'm not sure still fermenting beer will uptake all of the oxygen in a non-purged keg fast enough to avoid what is claimed to be the speed of these alleged oxidative reactions.

[Phil_M]

What's remarkable is that despite the fact that cask ale is supposed to oxidize slightly in the cellar, great pains are taken to ensure that as little oxidation as possible happens before that point. When I rack beer to my pin I plan on filling to the top, leaving as little headspace as possible.

I'm curious to try filling a keg with still-fermenting beer to just under the gas in line, and prime/fine. Then use the old "pressurize/pull the release valve" method to try and get as much O₂ out of the keg as possible. Then leave some small pressure to keep the keg sealed while the yeast produce more CO₂ and carbonate the beer. The trick would be figuring out the proper amount of primings to add to not overcarb it from that "sealing" pressure.

[denny]

One question I have about LODO and even Brewtan is what about all the gold medals from days gone by? Would those beers loose in a contemporary competition because LODO and/or Brewtan have raised the bar so dramatically?

I can't do LODO with my simple batch sparge system. I am working on adding spunding to my process. I am now transferring into a purged keg. I bought Brewtan-B (haven't tried it yet). Should I give up home brewing since I don't want to pre-boil, can't imagine not stirring, my sparge splashes a little bit, and I can't fill my mash tun from the bottom? Or should I train my taste buds to not like my beer (especially my Helles) and all other similarly made swill and then give up home brewing?

You see, I currently like my beers and think a lot of them are better than I can get at the local breweries (except for Yellowhammer of course because they are fresh and brewed to my taste. I am all for improving and I am trying many of the techniques offered. But I don't see a path to complete LODO with out big expense and I have not seen any evidence to make me want to risk the investment. I've got 2 college educations to pay for.

To answer your question about beers in the past, no, I don't think they would.  Particularly becasue there is no evedence that LODO actually improves beer.  It might, but as of yet we just don't know for certain.  As Jeff noted on his tour of Germany, some places do LODO and make great beer and some places don't do LODO and make great beer.  One reason I'm not rushing to LODO is becasue I don't detect problems it would supposedly solve.

[denny]

I didn't say not trying it is not evolving, just arguing so vehemently against it makes no sense to me. That, right there, is a stubbornness to evolve ideas.

I am not "vehemently" arguing against it.  And it should be obvious from my 20 years brewing that I'm not opposed to evolution in process.  But the LODO process I've seen described is nothing I'm interested in until it can be proven it does make a difference and that the beers I brew will improve because of it.  That's all.  Show me some proof.  Do some blind triangle tests.  Hell, send me some of the beer so I can see for myself.  If I'm gonna make radicval changes to my brewing process, I have to know that the payoff is worth the effort.  Until I see that, LODO is akin to snake oil.

[denny]

Didn't RPIscotty brew mostly Belgian beers? If he's gone whole-LODO he'd be a good source on that info.

While I'm not going LODO, (it's hard enough brewing in my house as it is) I'm becoming sold on the spunding idea. Seems the Brits have been basically doing the same thing in a way, transferring to the cask before the primary fermentation has completely finished. Granted, they do add wort/sugar to prime the keg at this point, but the still-active yeast should be doing much to scrub O₂. It'd be interesting to see how well this would work compared to trying to transfer to a purged keg.

Back in the "bad old days" of the 1920s-30s it was done the same way.  I thought we were supposed to be "evolving"!

[Phil_M]

Who knows? It could be a terrible idea-but I'm going to find out.

Sometimes I definitely wonder if we homebrewers miss out on easy solutions because we get wrapped up on more complicated fixes.

What's really interesting about this idea is that if it works I'd again be able to say "yes, I rack my beers to secondary..."

[zwiller]

...even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.

Agree 100%. I like American versions of Belgian beers even less than the American versions of German beers. But I'm not sure that copper is the answer for that or not.

+1;  First I've read of belgian IT and since this has been brought up, I think the short boil gives a belgian IT type effect.  I managed to get the effect even without using any malty stuff and would think using some would amplify it. 

[beersk]

...even more American breweries miss the mark on Belgian IT.

Agree 100%. I like American versions of Belgian beers even less than the American versions of German beers. But I'm not sure that copper is the answer for that or not.

+1;  First I've read of belgian IT and since this has been brought up, I think the short boil gives a belgian IT type effect.  I managed to get the effect even without using any malty stuff and would think using some would amplify it. 

I think the Belgian beers (made in Belgium) definitely have some kind of fresh lingering grain flavor that American version don't have. Same with the German beers.

And, Denny, you being into the experimental brewing thing, this should be right up your alley, dude. Try it and see for yourself. That's basically your motto.

Anyway, I feel like this is a frivolous battle. Brew the way you want to brew that gets you the results you want. End of argument.