Author Topic: Brewtan B  (Read 105700 times)

Offline zwiller

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #600 on: October 13, 2016, 06:56:07 am »
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.



This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.

Probably the most succinct explanation in this thread and has really helped wrapped my mind around the LO thing.  Thank you and great first post!  Let's talk about SNIP "polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols".  If I am interpreting this correctly, reductions of polyphenols would be good thing?  I am HUGE fan of polyclar and it's effect on reducing polyphenols is well understood.  RHB compliant as well.  From memory, polyclar is attracted to high weight moleculars but will have to dig to confirm.     
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline troybinso

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #601 on: October 13, 2016, 08:40:55 am »
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.



This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.
The image of those two glasses of wort clearly shows a difference in color. Can you elaborate on the specific differences between the process of producing each batch of wort?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
One wort was made with low o2 mashing procedures (light), the other was standard homebrewing procedures(dark).
The differences at that stage would be preboiled water and smb.

Wow. That is a pretty significant difference. Did you purge the mash tun of oxygen? If the only difference is SMB and preboiled water then that seems like a worthwhile couple of extra steps with hardly any effort.

Offline ParanoidAndroid10

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #602 on: October 13, 2016, 08:52:52 am »
I'll be curious to see where this discussion goes after people listen to what Joe has to say on today's podcast.

I gave it a listen. It's interesting to get his take on Brewtan B, and while most of what he said is technically correct, it's incorrect to conclude that Brewtan B prevents oxygen from reacting in the mash/boil altogether. I actually noticed that Joe hedged a bit on this - he said oxygen wouldn't react in the same way it normally would. He didn't say it wouldn't react at all.

Oxygen has more than one pathway to react with stuff in the mash. The Fenton reaction is only one of these pathways. Another set of major oxidative pathways are through naturally occurring enzymes found in the malt, such as lipoxygenase and polyphenol oxidase. I think polyphenol oxidase is the real bogeyman here, because we hypothesize that the simple, low molecular weight malt phenols are the main source of the fresh malt "it" flavor, and polyphenol oxidase is specifically made for catalyzing the oxidation of those phenols.

To use an analogy:

Using Brewtan B in oxygen-saturated water and expecting zero oxidation to take place is like mashing at 160 F and expecting no starch conversion to take place because you've denatured beta amylase at that temperature. It doesn't work, because you've overlooked the fact that alpha amylase is still active at 160 F and provides another pathway for the starch to convert.



This is a side-by-side picture of wort produced with a normal process (on the left) and wort made with the low-oxygen process (on the right). The color difference is indicative of the fact that the polyphenol oxidase enzyme has been inhibited. When polyphenol oxidase (which is the same type of enzyme that turns sliced apples or avocados brown when exposed to air) oxidizes the malt phenols into quinones, they polymerize to form reddish-brown polyphenols. The fresh malt flavors of the phenols disappear, and are replaced by a bitter malt flavor (George Fix called this "herbstoffe").

If Brewtan B doesn't make the wort several shades lighter (like the picture above), then it's not blocking all oxidative reactions in the mash.

I think that Brewtan B could absolutely be a useful tool, and i see it helping more post-fermentation because the Fenton reaction is also a big oxidative pathway in finished beer. So it could definitely help with shelf stability there - but I don't see how it can possibly be a magic bullet all by itself. Note that other commonly used additives like gelatin and Irish moss can also have metal chelating properties.

I've been reading some on oxidation of foods and came across using cinnamon as an antioxidant.  I know Charlie Papaizin uses 1/2 tsp in his mash.  He has stated that he heard about this while talking to some brewers in Europe.  There was a rumor going around a while back that Budweiser experimented with it for a bit, but discontinued due to the fear of people finding out that cinnamon was in their bud light.

In researching this more, it does appear that Ground Cinnamon has a very high ORAC number.  ORAC is Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity.  The higher the number, the better.  Cinnamon is #3 in the world behind Cloves and Sumac with a score of 267,536, so it is a very potent antioxidant.

The problem I ran into seems to be there are different types on cinnamon.  The Cinnamon Verum variety is considered true cinnamon.  You wont find it in the supermarket.  That type is Cinnamon Cassia.  I am assuming the higher ORAC number is the Verum type.

Cinnamon Cassia contains a compound called Coumarin that is toxic to the liver at high concentrations.  In Europe there is a limit on it in alcoholic beverages at 10 mg/l.  However this compound has been shown to reduce enzymatic browning by polyphenol oxidase.  Here is a study abstract on Cinnamon Extract and Coumarin used to prevent browning in apple juice:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236917730_Extraction_and_Quantitation_of_Coumarin_from_Cinnamon_and_its_Effect_on_Enzymatic_Browning_in_Fresh_Apple_Juice_A_Bioinformatics_Approach_to_Illuminate_its_Anti-Browning_Activity

I've started using the Verum in my mash.  I don't know if it works, but I know the taste does not carry over to finished product.

Do you think the Cassia, or the Coumarin synthesized from it, might be useful, or at least looked into further?



Offline dilluh98

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #603 on: October 13, 2016, 09:03:01 am »
Interesting, but perhaps not surprising, that sumac has one of the highest ORACs. This is where the active component of BrewtanB is derived from if I'm not mistaken.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2009
  • A twerp from Antwerp
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #604 on: October 13, 2016, 09:21:19 am »
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25396
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #605 on: October 13, 2016, 09:45:25 am »
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #606 on: October 13, 2016, 09:46:38 am »
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

Not preboiling the water to deoxygenate it, renders campden basically useless(unless you use a very high quantity). It takes 5ppm meta, to dissolve 1ppm oxygen, and campden has fillers.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 09:50:00 am by The Beerery »

Offline troybinso

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #607 on: October 13, 2016, 09:51:32 am »
How are you keeping the water from reabsorbing oxygen as it cools to mash temp? Also how are you keeping oxygen out of the mash tun?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #608 on: October 13, 2016, 09:53:43 am »
How are you keeping the water from reabsorbing oxygen as it cools to mash temp? Also how are you keeping oxygen out of the mash tun?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles-v2.pdf

Offline natebriscoe

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #609 on: October 13, 2016, 09:54:03 am »
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1760
  • Southern Maryland
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #610 on: October 13, 2016, 09:57:15 am »
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.

Isn't sulfur dioxide itself an antioxidant?

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page2.htm
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #611 on: October 13, 2016, 09:57:53 am »
Not a chemist here. But I believe it has more to do with its not oxygen.

CO2 is the primary gas produced by fermentation.  However, it is of course far from the only gas emitted.  There's also various sulfur compounds, aromatic esters, alcohols, water vapor, etc.  You are correct -- none of these are oxygen.  The only way to produce oxygen that I know of would be via electrolysis by running an electrical current through the water like a battery, and I seriously doubt any brewer is doing that!  Nevermind the flammable hydrogen gas that would be produced along with it!

What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?
Somebody with a better chemistry background is going to have to field this one. But in my mind it's still the purists co2 we can get and if it was a major problem bottle conditioning would more detrimental to the beer.

Isn't sulfur dioxide itself an antioxidant?

Yes  ;)

Offline natebriscoe

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #612 on: October 13, 2016, 10:03:10 am »
Something I have been wondering is if smb will act in a similar way to ascorbic acid, which I believe that when it is completely bound up it becomes an oxidizer. Any testing so far has not shown this, but I wonder.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4485
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #613 on: October 13, 2016, 10:05:34 am »
What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?

Heck no, not possible.

I have a bachelors in Chemical Engineering.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25396
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #614 on: October 13, 2016, 10:07:20 am »
What about things like sulfur dioxide coming from the fermentation?  Is it possible it could break down and release O2?

Heck no, not possible.

I have a bachelors in Chemical Engineering.

Yeah, I knew that, which is why I asked you. 
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell