Author Topic: Brewtan B  (Read 105702 times)

Offline ParanoidAndroid10

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #675 on: October 13, 2016, 03:28:02 pm »
In going back to the polyphenol oxidase and its relationship to "IT"...

L-Cysteine is a non-essential amino acid that might be useful.  When used as a food additive it is labeled E920.  It is used in bread making.

"The results suggest that the L-cysteine is a time bound inhibitor of PPO, since its highest concentration (5 mM) gives protection up to 4h having no further effect on the rate of browning reaction in apple juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259850047_Reversible_inhibition_of_Polyphenol_oxidase_from_apple_using_L-cysteine

This study looks at it, along with SMB, Citric Acid, and Ascorbic Acid as anti-browning agents:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228091413_Inhibition_of_polyphenol_oxidase_in_banana_apple_and_mushroom_by_using_different_anti-browning_agents_under_different_conditions

The force is strong with this one.  L-cysteine promotes thicker hair and is also used for, get this: preventing hangovers!  ;D

It appears to be potentially useful for hangovers, but I don't think it has ben proven in humans.  The way it works in possibly preventing is interesting.  It helps metabolize acetaldehyde (aka the green apple off flavor in beer) to acetic acid (the main ingredient in vinegar) which is harmless to us, but also another off flavor caused by an infection.


Offline Hand of Dom

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #676 on: October 13, 2016, 03:52:33 pm »
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.
Dom

Currently drinking - Amarillo saison
Currently fermenting - Pale ale 1 - 2017

Offline narvin

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #677 on: October 13, 2016, 04:23:49 pm »
I can guarantee you with 10000000% certainty, that brewtan only beers, and SMB only beers do not, I repeat DO NOT taste the same, not even close.

So you've tried Brewtan?  Any more data points for us other than the ten million percent guarantee?

Offline ParanoidAndroid10

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #678 on: October 13, 2016, 04:24:36 pm »
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.

Yeast /dextrose in morning and when I get home, smb, brewtan, cinnamon,  stainless chiller.  No spunding and I biab

Offline narvin

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #679 on: October 13, 2016, 04:38:50 pm »
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

Not preboiling the water to deoxygenate it, renders campden basically useless(unless you use a very high quantity). It takes 5ppm meta, to dissolve 1ppm oxygen, and campden has fillers.

I'm still trying to reconcile this with Martin's calculations that the dose of sulfite is more than plenty to neutralize what is in the strike water.  https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24675.msg348119#msg348119

If what he says is correct, then preboiling may not be necessary BUT you'd need a larger (possibly detrimental) amount of sulfite to ensure enough is left in the mash.  Have you tried higher doses?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 04:40:24 pm by narvin »

Offline dilluh98

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #680 on: October 13, 2016, 05:00:23 pm »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #681 on: October 13, 2016, 05:33:05 pm »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Sulfate is probably more of a problem

Offline beersk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #682 on: October 13, 2016, 05:34:24 pm »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Sulfate is probably more of a problem
You think so? I don't know...I think you could just add less gypsum to your water to make up for the sulfate.
Jesse

Offline natebriscoe

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #683 on: October 13, 2016, 05:36:04 pm »
I wonder if higher doses of SMB  may introduce a detrimental amount of sodium (flavor-wise) to the beer?
Sulfate is probably more of a problem
You think so? I don't know...I think you could just add less gypsum to your water to make up for the sulfate.
If I remember right 100ppm smb could add 75ppm sulfate.
Guess it depends on how much more smb is added.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 05:37:37 pm by natebriscoe »

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #684 on: October 13, 2016, 05:49:28 pm »
Sulfate and sulfite are two different things, but related.  SMB is sulfite, and steals oxygen to form sulfate.

You may be right on the sodium.  I'd reduce any sodium chloride or baking soda additions if using a lot of SMB.  And, maybe we don't want to use "a lot" either.  This forms part of my skepticism of its use.  Not to mention other chemicals like Brewtan / tannic acid -- what else is it doing to flavor that we don't yet understand.

Where's Martin...
Dave

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Big Monk

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Brewtan B
« Reply #685 on: October 13, 2016, 05:59:04 pm »
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=9230.msg113957#msg113957

Ask Gary what he thinks about smb ;)

Not preboiling the water to deoxygenate it, renders campden basically useless(unless you use a very high quantity). It takes 5ppm meta, to dissolve 1ppm oxygen, and campden has fillers.

I'm still trying to reconcile this with Martin's calculations that the dose of sulfite is more than plenty to neutralize what is in the strike water.  https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24675.msg348119#msg348119

If what he says is correct, then preboiling may not be necessary BUT you'd need a larger (possibly detrimental) amount of sulfite to ensure enough is left in the mash.  Have you tried higher doses?

If you reread the post you will see that he's CONFIRMING the dose rate in the paper as beneficial. What he's trying to get across is that he realizes that to onlookers the dose seems large and that it is true that only a portion neutralizes the oxygen in strike water. He then states that the remainder is protective, hence the extra.

Bryan and others who contributed to the paper measured, empirically (using DO meters), DO levels at various stages in the process. In addition, many still use sulfite test strips to determine the SMB consumption (not super precise but a good indicator of system performance) at various stages.

The reason you want to preboil is margin. Let's say your untreated water has 12 ppm DO. Now add 3 ppm from from dough in. Now add 2 ppm from atmospheric diffusion over the course of the mash. That's 17 ppm of DO that has contact your wort before you even get to the boil.

17*5 = 85 ppm SMB required. You've nearly used up your dose. If you consider that desired is < 1 ppm DO over the whole hot side of the process, we neglected DO introduced from pumping/transfer, boil and chilling you quickly realize starting out < 0.5 ppm DO by preboiling is advantageous and necessary.

Nobody is trying to put one past you or pull the wool over your eyes. This is all in the paper. It's simply a margin game. It's about Giving yourself the best chance at keeping DO low the whole process, not about making extra work for brewday.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 06:20:04 pm by Big Monk »

Big Monk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #686 on: October 13, 2016, 06:43:56 pm »
Brewtan has benefits outside of the Low O2 but is not in any way a substitute.

Which may not be a bad thing. It just isn't a bridge to, or replacement for Low O2.

You say that with utter certainty.  If both methods are producing beer with a greater depth of fresh malt flavor (IT?) and improved shelf-life/stability, they seem to be two means to the same end.  Is that not accurate?

I've neither used Brewtan nor gone to low-oxygen brewing, but it sounds to me like people are getting similar results. No?

I think that he only way to really know would be a Low O2 beer compared against a Brewtan beer. But I don't think that theoretically, given the information on both methods, that a Brewtan beer could compete, given that it neglects the great care taken pre dough in to avoid oxygen.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #687 on: October 13, 2016, 07:11:12 pm »
I agree. That would be a great experiment. And for what it's worth I think it's beneficial for all of us to hear from you since we know you were initially skeptical.


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Big Monk

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #688 on: October 13, 2016, 07:33:12 pm »
I agree. That would be a great experiment. And for what it's worth I think it's beneficial for all of us to hear from you since we know you were initially skeptical.


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I am by no means an authority. Everything is in the paper but don't feel bound to it lock, stock and barrel. Use your judgement and realize that the way it's written is the sure thing. Also use the sources from the paper and don't feel afraid to go deeper into the technical resources.

 

Offline Hand of Dom

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Re: Brewtan B
« Reply #689 on: October 14, 2016, 03:55:29 am »
Maybe a way to think about this is: O2 can react and oxidize more than one (likely many) compounds that make up wort. Does brewtan, by itself, work as an antioxidant for all of those oxidation reactions?

I don't doubt that people are seeing positive results with use of Brewtan (I feel that I have seen it in terms of shelf life in my bottled beer) but I very much doubt you will get the same result just using Brewtan vs low dissolved oxygen/SMB.

That's a good way to think about it, but on the other hand, you could say that the oxidation of "compound 1" is 90% responsible for the loss in flavor/IT.  Brewtan prevents this.  The oxidation of compounds 2-200 still occur, but are 10% of the equation.  If you are getting 90% (or whatever % you feel is correct), do you want to put the effort in for that extra 10%.

*For the record, I am neutral in all this.  I have implemented some steps of LODO and use Brewtan.  My last 3 beers are night and day vs years of terrible beer.

Which of the LODO steps did you use?  I tried the SMB, and using yeast/DME to scavenge the oxygen for the mash/sparge water in the brew I've currently got in the FV.

Yeast /dextrose in morning and when I get home, smb, brewtan, cinnamon,  stainless chiller.  No spunding and I biab
Thanks for the info, how much cinnamon do you add, and to what volume?
Dom

Currently drinking - Amarillo saison
Currently fermenting - Pale ale 1 - 2017