Author Topic: ESB water profile  (Read 1911 times)

Offline goschman

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ESB water profile
« on: May 13, 2016, 01:37:41 PM »
I don't brew English styles at all. I am thinking Amber Bitter but maybe bumping up the SO4. This isn't really an ESB but the idea for it is based on an ESB I suppose. Any feedback?
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Offline mainebrewer

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2016, 04:37:06 PM »
For my ESB I use the amber dry profile in Brunwater.
I like it but I haven't had it judged by anyone else.
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Offline goschman

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2016, 04:37:49 PM »
For my ESB I use the amber dry profile in Brunwater.
I like it but I haven't had it judged by anyone else.

I appreciate your feedback. Thanks.
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Offline stpug

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2016, 04:46:57 PM »
I feel like you could pick your poison anywhere from about 100-300ppm so4, based on your liking and experience with previous brews.  I, personally, don't enjoy the drying effect beyond ~200ppm for standard gravity ales, and usually opt for about 125-150ppm so4 to keep things moderate.  If I'm going for a lightly minerally profile with some drying on the tongue then I'll push to ~200ppm.  This would be the case for beers in the 4-6% abv range that do not finish sweet.

IIPAs (I know it's OT), for me, can handle more so4 due to the sweetness from the amount of malt and the hop character, which "pairs" well with the drying effect and mineral quality. IMO, of course.

Offline goschman

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2016, 04:54:49 PM »
I feel like you could pick your poison anywhere from about 100-300ppm so4, based on your liking and experience with previous brews.  I, personally, don't enjoy the drying effect beyond ~200ppm for standard gravity ales, and usually opt for about 125-150ppm so4 to keep things moderate.  If I'm going for a lightly minerally profile with some drying on the tongue then I'll push to ~200ppm.  This would be the case for beers in the 4-6% abv range that do not finish sweet.

IIPAs (I know it's OT), for me, can handle more so4 due to the sweetness from the amount of malt and the hop character, which "pairs" well with the drying effect and mineral quality. IMO, of course.

Thanks. I believe Amber bitter falls at 110 ppm so I may bump it up to 150 or so. I have been doing APA at 200-225 which this beer could handle as well I suppose. It may just come down to what I decide to do when I brew on Sunday.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 04:58:27 PM »
I went with 150 ppm SO4 on my last ESB and while the mineral profile was ok, I didn't care much for the beer itself.  I think it was more recipe based. 

Offline goschman

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 05:03:44 PM »
I went with 150 ppm SO4 on my last ESB and while the mineral profile was ok, I didn't care much for the beer itself.  I think it was more recipe based.

Yeah this is a collaboration type brew with a buddy. It's mostly UK ingredients but we decided on US05 for yeast and more of an American type hop schedule (I think?). I am using a lot of ingredients that I am not familiar with so I don't really know what to expect or how good it will be.
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Online erockrph

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2016, 12:32:31 AM »
I went with 150 ppm SO4 on my last ESB and while the mineral profile was ok, I didn't care much for the beer itself.  I think it was more recipe based.

Yeah this is a collaboration type brew with a buddy. It's mostly UK ingredients but we decided on US05 for yeast and more of an American type hop schedule (I think?). I am using a lot of ingredients that I am not familiar with so I don't really know what to expect or how good it will be.
I'm the last person to be a stickler for style, but you brewed an American Pale Ale with UK malts. British ale yeast is the hallmark of ESB character, and it's not really going to be recognizable as an ESB with US-05 (or American hops)

As far as the water profile goes, most ESB's have at least a moderate minerality. I think 200-300ppm of sulfate is what you need to really capture that authentic flavor. Of course, I'd rather brew to my tastes and keep it at 150ppm of sulfate, with about 80-100ppm of chloride.
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Offline goschman

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2016, 04:49:37 AM »
I went with 150 ppm SO4 on my last ESB and while the mineral profile was ok, I didn't care much for the beer itself.  I think it was more recipe based.

Yeah this is a collaboration type brew with a buddy. It's mostly UK ingredients but we decided on US05 for yeast and more of an American type hop schedule (I think?). I am using a lot of ingredients that I am not familiar with so I don't really know what to expect or how good it will be.
I'm the last person to be a stickler for style, but you brewed an American Pale Ale with UK malts. British ale yeast is the hallmark of ESB character, and it's not really going to be recognizable as an ESB with US-05 (or American hops)

As far as the water profile goes, most ESB's have at least a moderate minerality. I think 200-300ppm of sulfate is what you need to really capture that authentic flavor. Of course, I'd rather brew to my tastes and keep it at 150ppm of sulfate, with about 80-100ppm of chloride.

Using ekg, fuggle and palisade hops so I think the yeast is more of the hang up.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2016, 11:01:10 PM »
I agree that a sulfate level in the 150 to 300 ppm range would be preferred in an ESB. I would avoid the upper end for this style since my perceptions are that most British ESBs don't dry out their finish excessively. Keeping the chloride around 50 ppm is fine, but if you are looking for a more minerally flavor, boosting the chloride over 100 ppm is needed. 
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Offline charles1968

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2016, 07:48:43 AM »
Mineral levels in British bitters are quite a bit higher than levels US brewers tend to use. See link below for levels recommended for strong bitter by Murphy&Son, the main testing lab advising British breweries on water treatment.

http://tinyurl.com/jf8ntod

Bitter
Calcium 180-200
Chloride 150-300
Sulphate 250-400

Strong bitter
Calcium 220
Chloride 200-300
Sulphate 300-400


Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2016, 12:33:10 PM »
Mineral levels in British bitters are quite a bit higher than levels US brewers tend to use. See link below for levels recommended for strong bitter by Murphy&Son, the main testing lab advising British breweries on water treatment.

http://tinyurl.com/jf8ntod

Bitter
Calcium 180-200
Chloride 150-300
Sulphate 250-400

Strong bitter
Calcium 220
Chloride 200-300
Sulphate 300-400
That's for sharing that. My ordinary bitters popped when the SO4 was increased.
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Offline goschman

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2016, 04:34:52 PM »
Thanks for the help. I didn't check the thread this morning otherwise I probably would have bumped the minerals up.

Ended up with
Ca 90
Mg 7
Na 14
SO4 150
Cl 50

As noted this is basically an APA with uk ingredients. I used a bit of palisade hops and us05 which Americanized it. The hydrometer sample definitely had a grassy/earthy/tea hop character which was interesting since I haven't really used English hops before.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 04:39:44 PM by goschman »
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Online erockrph

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 05:27:50 PM »
I went with 150 ppm SO4 on my last ESB and while the mineral profile was ok, I didn't care much for the beer itself.  I think it was more recipe based.

Yeah this is a collaboration type brew with a buddy. It's mostly UK ingredients but we decided on US05 for yeast and more of an American type hop schedule (I think?). I am using a lot of ingredients that I am not familiar with so I don't really know what to expect or how good it will be.
I'm the last person to be a stickler for style, but you brewed an American Pale Ale with UK malts. British ale yeast is the hallmark of ESB character, and it's not really going to be recognizable as an ESB with US-05 (or American hops)

As far as the water profile goes, most ESB's have at least a moderate minerality. I think 200-300ppm of sulfate is what you need to really capture that authentic flavor. Of course, I'd rather brew to my tastes and keep it at 150ppm of sulfate, with about 80-100ppm of chloride.

Using ekg, fuggle and palisade hops so I think the yeast is more of the hang up.
My bad, I misread your post to mean that you had used American hops as well. I actually like a small amount of US hops to compliment the UK varieties in an ESB. Centennial, Meridian and Caliente have all done really well for me alongside EKG's.
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Offline charles1968

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Re: ESB water profile
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 01:22:44 PM »

[/quote]
That's for sharing that. My ordinary bitters popped when the SO4 was increased.
[/quote]

It's probably not to everyone's taste but I do think the high mineral level adds bite to beers that might otherwise seem a bit thin.