Author Topic: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential  (Read 1778 times)

Offline gman23

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Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« on: May 17, 2016, 06:35:05 PM »
Anyone know it? Beersmith has it set at 82% and I got very poor efficiency compared to normal. I am curious if it is considerably lower which may explain part of my problem.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 08:04:10 PM »
I brewed a 100% GP ale earlier this year and got 30.66 PPG (9 lbs. of GP yielded 6 gallons post-boil of 1.046 wort).
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Offline gman23

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 08:25:37 PM »
I brewed a 100% GP ale earlier this year and got 30.66 PPG (9 lbs. of GP yielded 6 gallons post-boil of 1.046 wort).

Thanks however I am little confused. Most lighter base malts seem to be around 37 ppg or 80% yield. You got 30.66 ppg from GP which works out to 67% yield? Sorry for my lack of comprehension.

EDIT - I appear to not be using the correct terminology. I think I may have found something that cleared up my confusion. It seems that those figures work out to near 36 ppg or 78% yield in regards to the terms that I am recalling off the top of my head. Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 08:40:30 PM by goschman »
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 03:47:29 PM »
A yield of 30.66 PPG from a malt with a hot water extract (HWE) rating of 37 PPG translates to the an extraction efficiency of 30.66 / 37 = 83%.  That is a very good extraction rate for a home system.

If you want to know a base malt's true maximum yield, take a pound, grind it into powder, convert it such that you produce a one-gallon solution at the end of the rest (you will need to use filter paper to lauter the sweet wort from the grain).  The gravity of the solution is the approximate maximum yield in PPG (a.k.a. its hot water extract rating) for the malt in its current condition.  Most malt absorbs moisture during packaging, shipping, and storage, so the actual maximum yield is usually lower than the malt analysis sheets state.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 04:28:31 PM »
By the way, points per pound per gallon (PPG) is calculated by taking the number to the right of the decimal point in a specific gravity reading and making it an integer (i.e., whole number).  That value is multiplied by the batch volume, yielding total gravity points.  Dividing total gravity points by the weight of the grist yields points per pound per gallon (PPG).

Example

Volume = 6.0 gallons
O.G. = 1.046
O.G. in gravity points = 46
Pounds of Grist = 9.0

Total Gravity Points = 46 * 6 = 276

Points Per Pound Per Gallon (PPG)  = 276 / 9 = 30.37

PPG is a quick and easy method for determining extraction rate.  In my humble opinion, it is a much more usable metric than extraction efficiency in a home brewery.  Once one knows one's extraction rate for a given base malt formulating and scaling recipes becomes simple enough to do in one's head due to the fact that in the extract produced from base malt in a recipe dominates a batch's gravity points.  For example, with a PPG of 30.37, we know that we can produce a beer with an O.G. of 1.03037 using a one pound of malt per gallon of post-boil wort; therefore, we know that we produce a 1.064 beer by using 64 / 30.37 = 2.1 pounds of malt per gallon of post boil wort.

PPG is a direct measurement.  Extraction efficiency is an approximation due to the fact that the weighted calculations are made against a set of values that may or may not reflect the actual maximum yield of the malts used in a recipe.  Extraction efficiency is a brew house metric, not a recipe or grain metric.  Extraction efficiency should not vary from recipe to recipe.  A brew house with a 75% efficiency rating should maintain that rating across all recipes.   If it does not, then one knows for certain that the maximum yield weighting table values that one is using in the extraction efficiency algorithm are incorrect, making extraction efficiencies about as accurate as IBU approximations.  Contrary to the false sense of security that brewing software gives a brewer, extraction efficiencies and IBU ratings require an analytical laboratory to analyze ingredients and the finished product in order to be accurate.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 02:37:40 AM by Saccharomyces »

Offline 69franx

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2016, 06:32:43 PM »
Mark, in your example, you state that extraction rates should remain the same on a given brewhouse, and you use 75% in the example. What I would like to really know, is if that 75% is a good number? I actually hit 74.7 and 75.6% on 2 of my last couple brews, following your math above. I was happy with my results and they came pretty close to beersmith projections. So I am thinking I am doing well, just wanted to check out my 75% against others expectations. Some questions I have posed in the past got responses of poor extraction, possibly due to crush, but if 75% is good or even average, I am happy with that. Just wondering...
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 03:57:34 AM »
Mark, in your example, you state that extraction rates should remain the same on a given brewhouse, and you use 75% in the example. What I would like to really know, is if that 75% is a good number? I actually hit 74.7 and 75.6% on 2 of my last couple brews, following your math above. I was happy with my results and they came pretty close to beersmith projections. So I am thinking I am doing well, just wanted to check out my 75% against others expectations. Some questions I have posed in the past got responses of poor extraction, possibly due to crush, but if 75% is good or even average, I am happy with that. Just wondering...

What I stated was that extraction efficiency ratings (percentages) should remain the same, regardless of grist composition or base malt.  The reason behind this assertion is that the total maximum yield in gravity points for a given grist is the sum of the weight of each grist component multiplied by its maximum yield in PPG.  The extraction efficiency is the batch total gravity points divided by the total maximum yield in gravity points. 

The place where this calculation breaks down is that we do not know the actual maximum yield for any given grain that we are using, which is why extraction efficiency percentages tend to change when changing malts. What is changing here is not the actual extraction efficiency.  What is changing is the maximum yield for the malt, and that change in yield is not accurately reflected in the maximum yield weighting table.   For example, British and continental 2-row malted barley tend to produce more extract per pound of malt because they contain lower percentages of protein than domestic 2-row.  A pound of grain is a pound of grain; therefore, a pound of malt that has a lower percentage of protein usually has a higher percentage of starch.

Big breweries have analytical laboratories that analyze the grain being used in the brew house to determine each grain's actual maximum yield.  That way, they know how much of the grain is making it into the product.  In effect, extraction efficiency is more of a bean counter metric than a brew house metric.  A brewer wants to know how much each pound of malt is adding to the total gravity points for the batch because he/she knows the total volume.   

Seventy-five percent is an easily obtainable extraction efficiency percentage once one dials in one's system and process, which is why it is chosen so often.  Seventy-five percent translates to 27 PPG with American 2-row and  just shy of 28 PPG with British pale.  Seventy-five percent is what I consider to be low end of the acceptable range.

Offline heavydeadlifts

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 10:05:24 AM »
I always get over 80% efficiency when using Simpsons golden promise as my base malt if that means anything to you. I don't get those results with any other base malt...
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Offline gman23

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Re: Simpsons Golden Promise extract potential
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 01:29:39 PM »
Thanks all. I got really low efficiency when using GP for the first time so I thought part of the problem might be a lower potential. The only other thing I can think of is that the grains were milled about 10 days prior to brewing and may have been exposed to air and short periods of sunlight.
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