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Author Topic: eBrewSupply: My Experience  (Read 2890 times)

Offline Jer

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eBrewSupply: My Experience
« on: May 24, 2016, 05:58:57 pm »
Hello Everyone, I've been a member for a while and learned a lot.

I want everyone to know what my/our experience has been with eBrewSupply.  In short, not good - not good at all.  Here's why.

I'm well aware that some of you may say "this is just a guy venting".  Go ahead, I don't care.  I'm looking for one of two things here.  1. Someone else will be spared the aggravation and frustration and expense I've been through in the last 6-8 weeks, or 2. that eBrew will take note and change.

We're on the Prairies north of the 49th.  In late January I inquired with eBrew about a custom built panel for our very oversized home brewery.  We have a 1BBL brewhouse and 8bbl of fermentation space - not boasting, just setting the stage.  We've built the whole thing from scratch, and have just moved to a much bigger space.  The design that we planned is 2 5500W elements in the HLT, HERMS for the MLT, one 5500W elements in the BK, and 2 3000w Burton induction plates under the BK.  We run 3 pumps - Water, HERMS, and Wort.

After a series of emails with eBrew we set a plan and a quote.  It was for a panel, 4 temp probes (HLT, HERMS, BK, and the outflow of our chiller.  Amperage and voltage meters on both 50a feeder circuits.  Needed 2 3 meter cables, and 2 5 meter cables), and 2 stove plug wires to feed the panel, but 12' instead of the usual 6'.  I paid the deposit that day, and was given an 8 week build time - putting us at late march/early april.  Great.

In the interim I ordered some switches, LED's, and plug ends and had them shipped to me.  We're in Canada.  Those arrived, and I got to work making up cord ends and switch boxes, etc.

About a month after the small parts arrived I received a "brokerage invoice" from UPS, despite requesting that the pre-paid brokerage service be used.  When I asked Ryan, the owner of eBrew about this, his words were "someone has to pay, either you or me".  That's not true.  If a pre-paid service is used then I don't end up getting a surprise bill later on.  This was clarified and all seemed good.

Time passed, and the panel made it's way north and got to me in Early April.  We got it un-boxed that night.  The first thing we noticed is that the entire HERMS pump circuit was missing.  This was very disappointing given the time and money put in.  I confirmed the email where I asked for it.  I let Ryan know, and he offered to send it back to add it, or we could do it ourselves later on.  One of our group is an electronics tech, so it was easiest to have him do it.  We were sent 4 3M cables instead of 2 3M and 2 5M, and the feeder cables were 6' instead on 12'.

At this point I learned that eBrew works with BrewersHardware for the probes and the wires - so the temp cables were blamed on BH.  2 5m cables were dispatched and arrived.  They arrived without the protective loom that I paid for, but for now, whatever, lets just get brewing.

Tim, our tech friend, opened up the panel before we plugged anything in and found no less than 15 loose connections.  No exaggeration, one-five.

We powered the thing up things seemed good.  The panel comes with a nice bound book to get things rolling.  I did my absolute best to not be a guy and skip steps.  I went through every single step.  I'm not a networking genius by any means, so I was super type A about taking the right steps.  I spent the better part of 6 hours that night, until about 3am, trying to get the BCS-462 to connect to my network.  Angry and frustrated, I went to bed. I emailed Ryan.  He responded by saying "oh ya, sorry, I forgot to change the manual.  Since BCS has gone to 4.0 firmware now that manual tells you to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you need to do".  Great, thx.

So, I got my DHCP settings right, and sat down again to get things fired up.  I got the temp cables plugged into the probes, threw some water in, and wanted to start programming away.......  all probes read zero.  I think to myself "I must be doing something wrong, there's no way all of them can be dead".   I spend another 2-3 hours troubleshooting things, with no luck.  Another email to Ryan and this time he says "oh ya, sorry about that, can you solder??".  No, I can't - that's what I paid you for.  BH and eBrew have their wires crossed, again, so over comes Tim with his soldering iron to dismantled and re-wire these temp probe cables.

Voila!!!  Temperatures!!!  Now I'm laughing!!!  No, I'm not.  In fact, soon I'm swearing, again.

I started programming the BCS.  This is not straight-forward.  Maybe it is if you're a process engineer, or programmer, but I'm not.  However, I realize that it's for me to learn, so I get to it.

If you call eBrew, be prepared to be talked to like you're a PEng of some type, and hacking your home router is something you should've learned in grade 3.

I get the kettles full of some wet stuff, and fire off the big elements.......... Click, half the panel is dead.  WTF.  I open the panel and see a breaker is thrown - OK, reset it, and away we go.  Fire it up again, run it for a bit - CLICK.  Pops again.  Hmmmm......  I start troubleshooting and seeing whats on what feeder line of the panel (it runs off 2 50a feeders).  One of the amp meters shows about 55A max, and one about 35 max.  That doesn't seem balanced to me.....  I start clicking things on and off to see what draws from where.

The wort pump isn't even included in the amp/voltmeters - great.

A small but relevant thing an a 3200USD/4200CDN purchase - the panel door sags like a saggy rotten old cupboard door.  Great.

I get a hold of Ryan and we chat very civilly on the phone.  He asks for some pics of the inside of the panel, which I provide, and makes a couple of suggestions for me to try.  So I do.

The breaker keeps popping under load, and on one of the times I had to open the panel and reach in to reset it I got a SHOCK FROM THE DOOR.  I'm not an electrical hack.  I'm capable of installing breakers and breaker boxes, so no, I didn't touch something I shouldn't have.

After this, Ryan says that this panel is likely a lemon, and needs to go back to him for a rebuild.  I'm hesitant about this since I knew this would be, at minimum, a 2 week turn around time.  That was May 8th.  Ryan was adamant that if I got the panel to a UPS outlet on the AM of the 9th, overnighted it to him, he'd have it turned around and back to my by that friday, the 13th.  He admits, and apologizes for, the panel not being tested properly before it was sent out, citing he had just moved and couldn't.  I agreed to send it back, and had it with UPS by 1100CST on May 9th, to be with eBrew by 1000EST on the 10th.

I track the package to check progress, and see UPS has made it a day late despite paying 3-400$ for super fast service.  I hear from Ryan on thursday 12th.  He's sounds upset in his email and tells me that I've inadequately packed the panel, and UPS has destroyed it.  I packed it in the same box, with the same packing (plus some more) that it was sent to me in.  Now I'm pissed.  After all the work and wasted hours and 4000$, you think I've sent this thing off in a bare cardboard box ????  He then tells me that I have to take it up with UPS, despite the fact that the build screw-ups that led to the return where all his fault, and that it was sent on his account #.  He says he's going to build a new one, with the timeline being design thursday eve, build on weekend, ship monday.

I get design drawings sunday the 15th.  I'm told it'll be built and tested monday the 16th, shipped tuesday the 17th.

On wed the 18th I looked into progress and I'm now told it won't be until thursday the 19th, but it'll be first thing in the AM and overnighted to be with my for friday the 20th - in time to do the brew that we were supposed to do 3 weeks prior.

On the 19th, around noon, I checked again - STILL NOT OUT THE DOOR!!!!  F!!!!  Really???

UPS gets a pickup request at 1700EST on the 19th - is that "first thing in the AM" ????  I'm now told bluntly, and un-apologetically, that there's no way it'll get to me for the weekend.  Now 5 guys that have made plans and taken time away to brew, can't.  Great.

UPS decides they need a signature from me along the way, but no one at eBrew keeps track of the shipment, so no one knows.  It's now May 24th, and as far as I know the panel is in Winnipeg and will be here in the next 48hrs, maybe......  over 2 weeks now, just like I predicted.

Ryan has now taken to not responding to my emails, which for me was the last straw, and hence this post.  I see no other recourse other than to educate other brewers that may be looking for a 1500-3000$ panel that Spike Innovations might be a better choice.

That's the facts of what happened.  You're welcome to draw your own conclusions and make your own decisions, but that's been my experience.  I'm very very disappointed that such an expensive and crucial piece of our brewery, that's supposed to be really fun, has been such a cluster.

I know that lots of people have had great experiences with Ryan and eBrew - that's why I gave him a 2000$ deposit without ever meeting the guy.

I'll update if anything new - good or bad, happens.

-Jeremy.



Offline stpug

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Re: eBrewSupply: My Experience
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 08:20:38 pm »
I feel your frustrations, and hopefully everything comes out golden in the end. I'm in a similar, but not brewing related, situation with some hardware that is not functioning correctly.  It's a PITA to jump through the hoops, wait, answer questions, wait, take the initiative for correspondence, wait, to finally be told "No, can't help you."

Offline Jer

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Re: eBrewSupply: My Experience
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2016, 01:37:11 pm »
An update.

So, the panel arrived yesterday.  UPS's tracking system said it was in Winnipeg, and then BOOM, it was at my office.  Whatever, at least it's here.  Almost 3 weeks late, but it's here.

It was packed in a bigger box with more packing, which is nice.

It now has the two 12' power cables that it supposed to have in the first place, and loomed too!!  That's nice.

It also came with 2 5m temp sensor cables, nicely loomed.  "Nice" you might thing......read on.

Got it home and unboxed.  The door now sags much less and has better hinges - good.  I opened it up and checked all connections.  Much better than before, but still a few that needed 1/4 to 1/2 turn to snug up.

Someone decided that 1 of the 3 pump circuit's LEDs should be reversed.  Not sure why.  I've asked eBrewsupply Ryan, and he's chosen to not answer that.

Got the panel mounted up.  Got everything plugged in, turn the key, and CLICK - both my 60A GFCI's are thrown at the breaker box.  GREAT!!!!  Here we go again!!!!  Reset and tried again.  CLICK!!!  Checked all plugged and reset.  CLICK!!!  Removed all element and pump plugs, and reset.  CLICK!!!!  Swapped cables and reset.  CLICK!!!  Tried just circuit B and reset.  CLICK!!!  Tried just circuit A.  It works, well, the part of the panel served by power in "A" does. 

From there I tested all the breakers inside the panels and narrowed it to one circuit.  With that one off, the rest of it now works, including the BCS, so at least I can test some programming.  Sadly, the circuit that's missing is the pump circuit, so I have static test water.  Makes it hard to test the HERMS with no pump, now doesn't it????  FML.

I thought I'd try out my nice new loomed 5m temp cables.  Hooked em up, check the BCS page - and low and behold they both read ZERO!!!!  "You're f-ing kidding me"......I say.  6 weeks after Ryan sent me the wrong cables, and fully acknowledged that he screwed up, he sent me MORE WRONG CABLES!!!  For the love of all things!!!  What is going on there??  Is eBrewsupply a return to work program for the head injured???  I know the the Upper Peninsula is known for being laid back, but I've never heard them called dumb.  This is changing my opinion of this.

So, because it's now almost midnight, I have the decency to not call Ryan, but rather email him.  I asked him about all the issues identified to date - LEDs swapped, temp cables WRONG AGAIN, circuit not working and breaker throwing.  His response in the AM can be summarized as this:

1.  LED's swapped?? - no response
2.  Wrong Temp Cables?? - "ya, we're firing that guy".
3.  Circuit not working?? - "I told you this before Jeremy, the hot leg short leg blackwire 220v bus bar ampmeter circuit worked before and you made me change it.  This is the result. [ie - this is somehow my fault]  Do this tweak [see link below for the actual pic he sent me] and it'll all be good".

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3lhto8eo0vjj9gf/IMG_9199.jpeg?dl=0

If you clicked the link - You're kidding me????  WTF is that pointing to??  and why am I being asked to rewire a 3200USD box???!!!  I'm a Doctor, not a madman!!!!!  (literally, I am a doctor - a real one, with a Rx pad and a knife).  I grew up on a farm, and I can wire a light and a switch, maybe even a 3way circuit, but not something like this - THIS IS WHY I PAID HIM TO DO IT!!!!  TO DO IT RIGHT!!!!  TO DO IT RIGHT AND ON TIME!!!!

I responded with "I'm glad you've found the source of your shop woes.  Now, how to you and eBrewsupply propose to compensate me and my brewing partners who have put in no less than 30 hours trying to get this panel working, and been delayed almost 2 months in the process?"  No response.  I'm very very close to calling a lawyer in Michigan to inspire a response.  He'll respond to technical questions within minutes,  but anything that requires him to man up to this series of ridiculous f-ups is met with strict radio silence.

As I type this I am away in Alberta teaching, but a friend has brought a journeyman electrician to the ranch to have a look, at our expense.  He's found at least one loose wire, and as far as he can tell he has it running.  The wort pump still doesn't register on the ampmeters.  It's also the electrician's opinion that IF this panel was tested at eBrewsupply, it was NOT powered on GFCI breakers.  Now, of course, I can't prove this, but it would fit based on the rest of this sh!t show.  Nothin' like 100A of power around 90 gallons of water housed in conductive vessels, to make your day better!!!

Overall, this has been a miserable experience.  This was supposed to be really, really fun.  A cool, sophisticated panel to run temps and times in our beautiful brewhouse that I have spent 100's of hours, and about $50k, building - but no, this POS, and this POS service to go with it.

I really hope anyone who reads this thinks at least twice before employing eBrewsupply and handing them your hard earned money.  Actually, what I hope for even more is that Ryan will man up, and respond to the tough questions I've posed and we can work it out.  He seems like a good guy, but that only takes one so far.  I'm open to working it out should he wish, but it's going to cost him some $.  That's the only way to compensate for this.  He runs an international web based business where he can't service these fairly complex devices himself, and clearly his quality control is poor at best, if not unsafe (I got shocked from the first panel).  Again, I have 30+ hours into trying to make this 3200USD device work, as well as paying a guy to do a bunch of soldering (a guy I get to call back now!!!), and a journeyman electrician at god only knows what per hour.

If anyone doubts my claims, or wishes to question them, or even more ballsy state that I'm lying - I can produce all emails stating the facts as described above.  In the past I've hired lawyers to prove less.

-Jeremy.


Offline Jer

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Re: eBrewSupply: My Experience
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2016, 01:10:25 pm »
An update:

Our panel is functional.  I'm not sure if all the kinks are worked out, but it's running.

Ryan and I have come to an agreement.  I acknowledge that new shops have growing pains, and he acknowledges that those growing pains should not gravely effect his customers.

I'm really looking forward to running our new brewhouse, and planning and building a new BCS based chilling system for our ferms and BBT with eBrewsupply.

Having said this, Ryan seems like a great guy.  He's really smart, but not very organized.  BE SURE that he knows all the features you want on your panel BEFORE he starts.  Lay them out point by point, and make sure you both acknowledge them in writing.  Having your panel show up not how you were expecting is heartbreaking.  They're a big investment, and if you're like me your beer making is on hold for months waiting for this damn thing......

-J.


narvin

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Re: eBrewSupply: My Experience
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2016, 01:19:05 pm »
Based on the amount of work you did, I think I'd buy parts from TEB and put it together myself.