[dzlater]

Ry Cooder
JJ Cale
Dave Lindley
Roy Buchanan

[RPIScotty]

Ry Cooder
JJ Cale
Dave Lindley
Roy Buchanan

Holy hell, how could I forget Roy!

His whole catalog is great but his renditions of "Amazing Grace" and Junior Walker's "Hot Cha" are incredible.

[pete b]

Triumph was, I believe, my second concert, the first being Deep Purple.
I would definitely add Eric Burden. Most know him as singer for the Animals and can name two or three hits but his solo stuff and War is amazing as is some deeper Animals tracks.
I really like The Zombies from that era too.
The biggest, most criminal, oversight of that era are the scores of great black musicians who invented the music and in many cases had it stolen by record companies and other musicians. While Led Zep, the Stones etc.were doing these mega tours these great artists were toiling away playing hundreds of shows a year, staying in crappy hotels, often segregated, and often working day jobs. Thankfully some white artists did come around and try to make things right by using their fame to highlight their heroes but only a few were able to really get the attention they deserve.
Check out a bemused Muddy Waters calling the Stones one by one onto the stage: https://www.google.com/search?q=muddy+waters+rolling+stones&rlz=2Y3KTZR_enUS0687US0686google.manta.mantaray&oq=muddy+waters+ro&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.14048j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[RPIScotty]

The biggest, most criminal, oversight of that era are the scores of great black musicians who invented the music and in many cases had it stolen by record companies and other musicians. While Led Zep, the Stones etc.were doing these mega tours these great artists were toiling away playing hundreds of shows a year, staying in crappy hotels, often segregated, and often working day jobs. Thankfully some white artists did come around and try to make things right by using their fame to highlight their heroes but only a few were able to really get the attention they deserve.

I have to respectfully challenge you here Pete. This is an oft-repeated and generally mis-informed interpretation of what actually went on in that era.

1.) What you say first is true: Blues musicians did have terrible contracts, terrible royalty arrangements, terrible management and did have their music outright stolen from them. What people often fail to recognize though is that this was occurring as early as the late 20s, well before the Rock and roll era. Also, music was typically reworked and appropriated by other black artists in this era. Essentially ALL of the delta blues musicians were stealing from one another.

2.) I'm not sure of what artists you're speaking of but its worth mentioning that, discounting big names like Big Bill Broonzy, Howlin' Wolf, Muddy and others from the 60s Folk Blues revival, who did very well in their era and the rock era that followed, most of the guys were in relative obscurity with a litany of interpersonal problems and alcohol issues way before the 50s/60s era. Lightning Hopkins famously was coaxed from obscurity, reluctantly I may add, by the promise of a bottle of Gin.

3.) I've said this before in conversations on the topic: I am always shocked by how overblown the claims against Zeppelin are. If people can seriously listen to "Lemon Song" and claim that they straight up copped from Wolf and the like, then they aren't listening. Stealing music is one thing. Reinterpreting it is another. Should they have paid proper homage? Yes. This may be their most egregious mistake. Claiming the songs were traditional was a dick move. Should they have to compensate these guys financially for providing them inspiration? Maybe, but they shouldn't be required too. Hell, every Delta, Piedmont, etc musician from the 20s through the 40s lifted music from one another with no change or reinterpretation and never thought twice about it.

Just my $0.02

[majorvices]

Led Zep brought the blues into a whole new dimension. It was not stealing it was borrowing, enhancing and vastly improving. The "reengineered" blues in a way that had never been done before. I have a friend who is a wonky music snob who looks down his nose at Led Zep because they "stole" their music and, frankly, while he is my friend I think he's an idiot for thinking that.

[majorvices]

Robin Trower

Crack The Sky

Ten Years After

Traffic

Humble Pie

[dannyjed]

1. Roky Erickson
2. Stooges
3. Flying Burrito Brothers

[RPIScotty]

Led Zep brought the blues into a whole new dimension. It was not stealing it was borrowing, enhancing and vastly improving. The "reengineered" blues in a way that had never been done before. I have a friend who is a wonky music snob who looks down his nose at Led Zep because they "stole" their music and, frankly, while he is my friend I think he's an idiot for thinking that.

I agree Keith.

Blues as a style and art form would have died on the vine were it not for the British in the 60s. There simply would not have been an opportunity to even debate this.

[case thrower]

You have to give a nod to Alexis Korner and John Mayall.  Korner was playing the blues in England before just about anyone else, very early 60s, and Mayall continued it, with a stream of sidemen that set the standard.

[case thrower]

The biggest, most criminal, oversight of that era are the scores of great black musicians who invented the music and in many cases had it stolen by record companies and other musicians. While Led Zep, the Stones etc.were doing these mega tours these great artists were toiling away playing hundreds of shows a year, staying in crappy hotels, often segregated, and often working day jobs. Thankfully some white artists did come around and try to make things right by using their fame to highlight their heroes but only a few were able to really get the attention they deserve.

I have to respectfully challenge you here Pete. This is an oft-repeated and generally mis-informed interpretation of what actually went on in that era.

1.) What you say first is true: Blues musicians did have terrible contracts, terrible royalty arrangements, terrible management and did have their music outright stolen from them. What people often fail to recognize though is that this was occurring as early as the late 20s, well before the Rock and roll era. Also, music was typically reworked and appropriated by other black artists in this era. Essentially ALL of the delta blues musicians were stealing from one another.

2.) I'm not sure of what artists you're speaking of but its worth mentioning that, discounting big names like Big Bill Broonzy, Howlin' Wolf, Muddy and others from the 60s Folk Blues revival, who did very well in their era and the rock era that followed, most of the guys were in relative obscurity with a litany of interpersonal problems and alcohol issues way before the 50s/60s era. Lightning Hopkins famously was coaxed from obscurity, reluctantly I may add, by the promise of a bottle of Gin.

3.) I've said this before in conversations on the topic: I am always shocked by how overblown the claims against Zeppelin are. If people can seriously listen to "Lemon Song" and claim that they straight up copped from Wolf and the like, then they aren't listening. Stealing music is one thing. Reinterpreting it is another. Should they have paid proper homage? Yes. This may be their most egregious mistake. Claiming the songs were traditional was a dick move. Should they have to compensate these guys financially for providing them inspiration? Maybe, but they shouldn't be required too. Hell, every Delta, Piedmont, etc musician from the 20s through the 40s lifted music from one another with no change or reinterpretation and never thought twice about it.

Just my $0.02

I'm not arguing with anyone but for a different take on this, listen to Buddy Guy's "Don't Tell Me About The Blues" from 1994's "Slippin' In".

[RPIScotty]

You have to give a nod to Alexis Korner and John Mayall.  Korner was playing the blues in England before just about anyone else, very early 60s, and Mayall continued it, with a stream of sidemen that set the standard.

Big nod to John Mayall. Eric Clapton, Peter Green and Mick Taylor all made their bones in The Bluesbreakers.

[pete b]

The biggest, most criminal, oversight of that era are the scores of great black musicians who invented the music and in many cases had it stolen by record companies and other musicians. While Led Zep, the Stones etc.were doing these mega tours these great artists were toiling away playing hundreds of shows a year, staying in crappy hotels, often segregated, and often working day jobs. Thankfully some white artists did come around and try to make things right by using their fame to highlight their heroes but only a few were able to really get the attention they deserve.

I have to respectfully challenge you here Pete. This is an oft-repeated and generally mis-informed interpretation of what actually went on in that era.

1.) What you say first is true: Blues musicians did have terrible contracts, terrible royalty arrangements, terrible management and did have their music outright stolen from them. What people often fail to recognize though is that this was occurring as early as the late 20s, well before the Rock and roll era. Also, music was typically reworked and appropriated by other black artists in this era. Essentially ALL of the delta blues musicians were stealing from one another.

2.) I'm not sure of what artists you're speaking of but its worth mentioning that, discounting big names like Big Bill Broonzy, Howlin' Wolf, Muddy and others from the 60s Folk Blues revival, who did very well in their era and the rock era that followed, most of the guys were in relative obscurity with a litany of interpersonal problems and alcohol issues way before the 50s/60s era. Lightning Hopkins famously was coaxed from obscurity, reluctantly I may add, by the promise of a bottle of Gin.

3.) I've said this before in conversations on the topic: I am always shocked by how overblown the claims against Zeppelin are. If people can seriously listen to "Lemon Song" and claim that they straight up copped from Wolf and the like, then they aren't listening. Stealing music is one thing. Reinterpreting it is another. Should they have paid proper homage? Yes. This may be their most egregious mistake. Claiming the songs were traditional was a dick move. Should they have to compensate these guys financially for providing them inspiration? Maybe, but they shouldn't be required too. Hell, every Delta, Piedmont, etc musician from the 20s through the 40s lifted music from one another with no change or reinterpretation and never thought twice about it.

Just my $0.02

I wasn't using LZ as an example of stealing but rather as an example of how huge and wealthy these bands got. I agree that LZ and others were changing and moving forward the blues and not only is that legitimate but it is universal among artists. Every great painter has a lineage.
I was only pointing out that in a conversation of underrated artists of this era, and by underrated I take in part to mean not getting the recognition they deserve, the black artists that so heavy influenced every big name act need to be recognized. I don't blame the successful artists at all, I'm a fan of virtually all of them, its obviously part of a much bigger problem, a problem that these successful artists lament themselves in every biography I've read. Remember, well Into this era these artists were only played on "black radio" and therefore got a tiny fraction of the airplay that others got on AOR that drove the financial success of the big artists.
Derek, your points numbered 1 &2 I don't understand. The fact that these artists were being ripped off since the twenties somehow makes it less egregious?
And then this: " most of the guys were in relative obscurity with a litany of interpersonal problems and alcohol issues way before the 50s/60s era." WTF?! This is true, famously and undeniability, of virtually every act that made it big in this era but this characteristic is what prevented all but a few black artists from getting recognition and not all the other obstacles they faced? I know that kind of B.S. gets fed to all of us our whole lives but I think your smart enough to see through it.

[RPIScotty]

Pete,

I only meant with 1.) that there was a historical precedence in place in that musical canon. Some British and American acts did better than others at giving credit to their influences. They can be forgiven in some respects for the reasons I detailed there given the fact that it was not uncommon for blues musicians to employ the same practices in all eras.

As far as 2.) I'm not sure I made the point I wanted to. I guess I was just trying to point out that the MOST influential black artists of the day did very well in that era. BB King, Freddie King, Albert King, Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf, Big Bill Broonzy, and many, many others were given gobs of credit and treated like royalty from the late 50s revival onward. I should have stated that initially. My point was muddled and unclear and you're right to point out the holes in it. It was really late I think when I wrote that. What was in my head didn't translate as I had wanted it to.

I think what I was driving at with 2.) was that some of these guys, not all, were reticent and at times downright uninterested in the prospect of being a part of the resurgence that occurred from the late 50s onward and that this in part driven by personal problems etc. I shouldn't  have generalized all parties this way. The artists who embraced this newfound interest in their music did very well.

[majorvices]

I knew what you meant Pete but I had to bite on that tired on argument that RPIScotty mentioned. I agree it is sad that these guys didn't get fully compensated or acknowledged for their contributions until much later. That said, they also weren't selling out 50,000 seat arenas with their folk  blues.

[case thrower]

I knew what you meant Pete but I had to bite on that tired on argument that RPIScotty mentioned. I agree it is sad that these guys didn't get fully compensated or acknowledged for their contributions until much later. That said, they also weren't selling out 50,000 seat arenas with their folk  blues.

Yeah, I'm sure 50,000 blacks gathering together for anything in the 1920s & 30s South would have gone over real well.