Author Topic: Hefeweisen seems wrong  (Read 1236 times)

Offline mhughes8082

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Hefeweisen seems wrong
« on: June 13, 2016, 02:46:36 PM »
All -
I brewed a 5.5gal batch of El Hefe using 3.65# German Pilner and 5.6# of German Wheat Malt and it does not seem right.  I did a single step mash at 157F.  The wort was light colored and very cloudy (white-ish stuff) my OG was only 1.034 and SG coming out of the primary was 1.020 vs. targets of 1.052 and 1.012.  It still looks cloudier than I would expect.  I'm wondering what happened - wondering if maybe i got the grains too hot??  Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2016, 03:00:49 PM »
How do you take your SG measurements - hydrometer or refractometer? Do you correct for temperature on hydrometer measurements, or use a correction for aclcohol present in refractometer FG readings? Do you calibrate your thermometer, hydrometer and/or refractometer to be sure they read correctly? Is this recipe scaled for your actual efficiency or is it a posted recipe that you used as is?
Jon H.

Offline mhughes8082

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2016, 03:20:02 PM »
I use a hydrometer - i brewed a second batch the same day and it checked out fine, but I have another so I will use both on my next batch.

I got the recipe from AHA: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/el-hefe-2/

Thanks!!

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2016, 03:25:41 PM »
I'm sure it's a good recipe but since it's written in amounts and not %, it doesn't take into account the efficiency you get on your beers. If you use software like Beersmith or similar, scaling recipes to your actual efficiency will go a long way to hitting your target OG.
Jon H.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2016, 04:37:17 PM »
Yes. Definitely sounds like an efficiency issue here.

Offline mhughes8082

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2016, 06:33:22 PM »
Thanks guys - any ideas on how to prevent in the future or salvage this batch?

Much appreciated!!

Mike

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2016, 06:41:39 PM »
Thanks guys - any ideas on how to prevent in the future or salvage this batch?

Much appreciated!!

Mike



You need to know your efficiency to be able to be close to your target OG in the future. I'd run your numbers through an efficiency calc like this one and then enter that efficiency number into software like Beersmith or similar. It's a way of taking control of your process and being able to consistently get close to the OG you want to hit.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/
Jon H.

Offline mhughes8082

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 07:06:57 PM »
Will do - Thanks so much!!

Mike

Offline dbarber

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2016, 07:34:12 PM »
I don't remember exactly what my efficiency was, by I did a double decoction, so I am sure that it was higher than my average of 75%.  FWIW - a single infusion of 157 is high for a hefeweizen I would shoot for around 152
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 07:46:40 PM by dbarber »
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2016, 07:58:31 PM »
It doesn't make sense that your yeast only fermented 14 points, but maybe at a 157F mash temp, you might see that high of a gravity. Hard though, with a simple hefe recipe.


Offline mabrungard

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM »
Yeah, 157F is quite high for a Hefe. How sure are you that your thermometer reading is accurate? If its reading low, that would easily explain the poor mashing and conversion performance.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2016, 11:55:10 PM »
Yeah, 157F is quite high for a Hefe. How sure are you that your thermometer reading is accurate? If its reading low, that would easily explain the poor mashing and conversion performance.

+1 on temp perhaps reading low. if it really was 157F, while high all things considered (good PH and crush) I would have expected better conversion. had you crossed into 160F +....perhaps your issue.

also, wheat needs a tighter crush IME- might have had some impact but unless it was whole kernels in your mash, not likely your primary culprit...spit balling.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2016, 07:48:28 PM »
Yeah, 157F is quite high for a Hefe. How sure are you that your thermometer reading is accurate? If its reading low, that would easily explain the poor mashing and conversion performance.
[/quote

also, wheat needs a tighter crush IME- might have had some impact but unless it was whole kernels in your mash, not likely your primary culprit...spit balling.

Yeah, I remember someone on here mentioning they had consistently lower OG's when using a decent percentage of wheat malt in their grain bill. Crush is most likely the issue.

Come to think of it, I too have seen some drop in expected OG's when using a high portion (60% or so) of wheat in my recipes. Missing sometimes by 5-6 points which is pretty rare for me. I feel like the poster was stating that they observed close to a 10% drop in efficiency when using wheat in their recipes IIRC.

Offline blair.streit

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2016, 07:21:54 PM »
Yeah, I remember hearing somewhere that rather than changing your mill settings you can just run the wheat through twice (once by itself and then once with the rest of the grist).

Of course I've been so distracted lately I might have read that a couple of pages back on this thread.

Offline frumpland

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Re: Hefeweisen seems wrong
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2016, 11:56:54 PM »
The potential extract percentage of wheat malt is the same as two row and it can be slightly higher depending on the malt house and variety. There should be no reduction in gravity when wheat malt is used. 
Alpha I denatures above 162F and it takes a long time for it to denature. The rest temperature that was used was at the high side of Alpha II and an hour rest at 157F will not denature the enzyme, unless pH was totally out of whack, the malt was almost dead, the mash temperature was very high for more than 10 minute before being lowered to 157F or the grain was improperly crushed.
If none of those things are a culprit, Alpha would have produced a range of non fermenting types of sugar and highly fermentable glucose and with the grain bill that was used would have added up to 1050 grav at the desired volume. The reason the gravity stayed on the high side 1020 might not be out of line coming out of the primary. How long did the beer rest on all of the gunk in the primary? Were you going to use a secondary fermentation vessel? Next time use a secondary and follow this procedure when making the same wheat beer that you have attempted, if you are not a decoction method brewer. Dough in .75 to 1 qt/lb at 95 to 98F and rest mash for 20 minutes. After the low temp rest is over check mash pH and reduce it to 5.5 if necessary by using sauer malz. Raise mash temp to 122F with boiling water and rest mash for 20 minutes. Increase mash temp to 145F with boiling water and rest for 35 minutes, this is the maltose rest. Beta will kick in gear. When the mash stabilizes at 145F add sauer malz and reduce pH to 5.2, going no lower than 5. Alpha is also in gear at the same time but by reducing the pH it will be slowed down. During the maltose rest Beta will convert the glucose formed when Alpha liquefies the simple starch chain known as amylose, at a 1-4 link. The non reducing end which is formed when the starch chain is liquefied is glucose. Beta will convert the glucose into maltose and maltriose, complex sugar. Use iodine to determine if starch is present after the 35 minute Beta rest is over. Increase the heat to 154F and rest mash for 5 minutes. Slight dextrinization will occur adding some body, it is the random part that nature decides on. Beta will denature. Increase heat to 162F and rest the mash for 20 minutes. Then, mash out at 170F. By adding hot water throughout the process viscosity will be reduced. A secondary fermentation vessel will be needed. A type of conversion takes place during that time. The maltose and maltriose formed during the 145F rest will still be there because the yeast would have already ripped through the glucose during primary and yeast enjoys glucose more than it likes complex sugar. After 7 to 10 days in the primary, transfer the beer into a secondary fermentation vessel, purging the vessel with CO2. Do not slop the beer into the secondary, air is a no-no from then on. The only oxygen yeast will require is bound up in the sugar molecule. Yeast will absorb the maltose and maltotriose into itself and expel glucose through the wall of the cell during secondary fermentation. The glucose becomes fuel for the yeast and fermentation continues. When the gravity in the secondary drops to 1020 no lower than 1015, keg the beer. The residual maltotriose will continue to be converted and the glucose formed will ferment and naturally carbonate the beer. There will be no need to prime nor artificially carbonate the final product. Double or tri-decoction is a more suitable method to use when producing wheat beer because protein gum is reduced when the decoctions are boiled and amylo-pectin bursts. Single infusion makes it difficult to produce true hefe. Do not batch sparge, too much work went into producing clean wort and it makes no sense to stir up the goop caught in the bed and run it into the boiler. Fly sparge slowly without compacting the bed.