Author Topic: sour cider  (Read 1950 times)

Offline homoeccentricus

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sour cider
« on: June 27, 2016, 10:02:22 AM »
My understanding is that you can't first ferment cider with sacch, and then add brett/lacto/pedio, because all the sugars will be have been consumed. Correct? Has anyone tried making cider with something like WLP655 Belgian Sour Mix? It contains brett, sacch, lacto  and pedio. Good results?
Frank P.

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Offline PrettyBeard

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2016, 03:37:25 PM »
I've done "wild" ciders before, but that's as close as I've come to sour.  In my experience it doesn't really sour much.  I suspect that malolactic fermentation evens out any sugar to lactic acid production.  I've never gotten the sort of funkiness you'd expect from Brett. either.  Apple juice may not have the necessary precursors to produce a lot of that.

Personally, I'd just use more sour (acidic) apples, but I live in the US and can't really get proper cider apples so I usually dose with wine tannin and acid blend to get it where I want.

Offline erockrph

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2016, 03:39:16 PM »
I've never tried brewing a sour cider, but since the simple sugars are rapidly consumed by the yeast I'd consider either pitching lacto first or adding some maltodextrin to boost the amount of residual food left for the bugs.

I'd be afraid that a sour cider would be too tart since they finish so dry.
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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2016, 04:25:26 PM »
Just brainstorming here. I've made a couple of ciders with tart cherries, and backsweetened with honey. They are good, but I would like to blow the skulls off a few people with my next batch.
Frank P.

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Offline erockrph

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 05:31:44 PM »
Just brainstorming here. I've made a couple of ciders with tart cherries, and backsweetened with honey. They are good, but I would like to blow the skulls off a few people with my next batch.
Apple juice is often used for lacto starters. If you're really looking to push the envelope, then I'd pitch the lacto first and let it rip before pitching Sacc and/or Brett.
Eric B.

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Offline Stevie

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 06:08:58 PM »
There is a cider company in LA that makes their ciders with a mixed fermentation. I don't buy them anymore due to the cost at $10 for a bomber and they tend to have large amount of dregs.

Shoot them an email and see what their process is. http://www.101cider.com

Offline PrettyBeard

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 07:54:18 PM »
Just brainstorming here. I've made a couple of ciders with tart cherries, and backsweetened with honey. They are good, but I would like to blow the skulls off a few people with my next batch.
Apple juice is often used for lacto starters. If you're really looking to push the envelope, then I'd pitch the lacto first and let it rip before pitching Sacc and/or Brett.

The problem is that lactic acid bacteria will all break down the naturally occurring malic acid in apple juice, along with the sugars.  This is done intentionally in some wines to reduce the perceived acidity and actually raises pH. As an off flavor in wine it is said to have a green apple flavour, so you might want to keep it around in your cider anyway.

To give another perspective Granny Smiths, a common american tart apple, have a pH around 3.5.  That's in the realm of your flanders red and most lambics already.  Add a few volumes of CO2, ferment out to around 1.00 and your are going to be in the realm of Berliner Weisse anyway (pH ~3.1).

Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2016, 09:44:42 PM »
Just brainstorming here. I've made a couple of ciders with tart cherries, and backsweetened with honey. They are good, but I would like to blow the skulls off a few people with my next batch.
Apple juice is often used for lacto starters. If you're really looking to push the envelope, then I'd pitch the lacto first and let it rip before pitching Sacc and/or Brett.

The problem is that lactic acid bacteria will all break down the naturally occurring malic acid in apple juice, along with the sugars.  This is done intentionally in some wines to reduce the perceived acidity and actually raises pH. As an off flavor in wine it is said to have a green apple flavour, so you might want to keep it around in your cider anyway.

To give another perspective Granny Smiths, a common american tart apple, have a pH around 3.5.  That's in the realm of your flanders red and most lambics already.  Add a few volumes of CO2, ferment out to around 1.00 and your are going to be in the realm of Berliner Weisse anyway (pH ~3.1).
not sure what exactly you are suggesting :)
Frank P.

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Offline dzlater

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2016, 11:04:04 PM »
I've tried making cider a few times and they were all too sour for my liking.
That's why I don'y make cider anymore. ;)
Dan S. from NJ

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 12:00:45 PM »
I have made a Sacch/Brett cider before.  It does keep on going and get funky like beer does.  That said, I really did not like it at the time.  Nowadays I would probably appreciate it a lot more.  Have you ever tasted a Basque cider from Spain?  It is very dry,  tart, and funky with a distinct green olive flavor.  That is what mine tasted like.  People pay a lot for Basque ciders but it is certainly an acquired taste that you might not enjoy on your first go.  Maybe try a commercial version before simulating your own with Brett.  They come very close.

Cheers.
Dave

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 12:19:25 PM »


Hm, I think my arms are not long enough for a Basque-ish cider.
Frank P.

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 01:40:41 PM »


Hm, I think my arms are not long enough for a Basque-ish cider.

:)
Dave

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 01:45:47 PM »
But it's not a bad idea: try to find a commercial example before making a sour cider. Let's stick to fruit in season to add in secondary for now, and use wine yeast.
Frank P.

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Offline homoeccentricus

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 01:50:04 PM »
An attempt by Mike Tonsmeire: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/sour-cider.html

Apparently not the greatest of success in the world.
Frank P.

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Offline narcout

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Re: sour cider
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 04:55:51 PM »
I made a cider late last year with 3522.  When the gravity was around 1.020, I racked it into a keg with some oak cubes and pitched a WL vial of brett.  That was in January; I haven't checked on it since.

Maybe I'll have a chance to sample it this weekend.
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