[SyCoNo0b]

Hello everyone! I've been brewing beer for about a year now. I've made some pretty good stuff and decided that I wanted to try to make cider. Belle Saison yeast seemed like a cool yeast to use. I was thinking of making a 5 gallon batch, add about 4-5 lbs of light brown sugar (I'm going for a decent OG - trying to push the limits), 1 stick of cinnamon, add my yeast nutrient and pitch my yeast; then I'm going to ferment at room temperatures of about 75F-80F. With my beers, I know my fermentation is about 2 weeks, or whenever my FG is consistent for about 3 different readings over the next few days while making sure to properly control my temps. But, with a cider, I keep reading so many different fermentation times and temps, which all seem to range from 2 weeks to several months. I haven't been able to find clear instructions or recommendations on fermentation times. I also didn't know if anyone has successfully bottled a cider without making bombs; Can it be done? Or must they be kegged? I do know that using an airlock is not wise (I'm ready with some tubing and a gallon of water for the krausen to spill into). Does anyone have experience with a Belle Saison as the yeast of choice? How did it come out?

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

It's your first cider, skip the sugar.

Belle saison with nutrients will ferment in a few days typically.


You can bottle a dry cider just fine if you don't add any fermentable sugar after fermentation is complete (besides enough to provide carbonation). You can bottle prime it as well. What you can't do is bottle a back sweetened cider. That's rolling the dice everytime. If you want sweetened carbonated cider you have two options, risk your safety, or keg it.

If you want to risk your safety...

Ferment as desired.
Back sweeten to desired sweetness (take a few samples, sweeten to different levels every 0.003 sg or so, so 1.003, 1.006, 1.009 etc etc). I like 1.009-1.012, but my gf likes 1.012-1.018 depending on what I sweeten with.

Bottle at least 3 bottles in plastic soda bottles. These are your testers. Bottle the rest in glass.
Check the soda bottles twice a day, I did after work and before I went to bed. As soon as the soda bottles are too firm to squeeze, they're carbed and need to be taken care of within 24 hours.

Place all bottles in fridge. 

If you do not intend to drink the remaining cider within ~2 weeks, I recommend pasteurization.

You'll need a way to handle hot wet bottles. A silicone baking glove works here, or canning tongs. You'll need a towel, and you'll need two pots of water.

Heat 1 pot of water to ~140F. Place bottles in there. Keep them in there for about 15 minutes, WITH THE LID ON. Heat the other pot to 180F and place the 140F bottles in there for another 15 minutes WITH THE LID ON then place on counter/rubbermaid tub to contain any potential explosions.

You should now have sweetened carbonated cider. There may be some haze due to pectin due to the pasteurization, depending on your juice source.

[Philbrew]

Could you back sweeten with something non-fermentable plus carbonation sugar?

[dmtaylor]

Could you back sweeten with something non-fermentable plus carbonation sugar?

Yes you could.  In my experience, xylitol tastes almost exactly like real sugar, without any of the chemically tastes that you would get from Splenda or others.  Xylitol can be kind of expensive and if consumed in large quantities can lead to gastric distention, but in moderation it's wonderful stuff.  I might have to try using this sometime.  On the other hand, my own process for obtaining natural sweetness in cider without any added sugars is pretty awesome, albeit time consuming.... if interested, search on dmtaylor & cider & gelatin and you should be able to find info on this process.

[Pricelessbrewing]

I haven't had that experience with any nonfermentable sugars, they leave a weird taste in my mouth.

[santoch]

I think it's a great approach.

I have not (yet) tried making a cider using anything other than Wyeast Cider yeast.  That said, a couple years ago, Dave Hutchinson, the head brewer at Rogue Issaquah, did a cider using Wyeast's witbier yeast.  It was simply one of the best ciders I ever had.  The light phenolics went extremely well with the apple character, orange-y notes, plus he added a bit of cinnamon.  The yeast provided great balance, nothing overpowering at all.

I have been waiting for the apple harvest to do one myself in a couple months, and can't wait

[dmtaylor]

I find that Belgian yeasts don't do anything special to cider.  Yeast does make a difference in final flavor, but not as much as you think and it doesn't do the same things to cider as it does to beer.  Looking for clove and banana and pepper flavors from your yeast in cider?  Reality is different from expectations.

[denny]

I find that Belgian yeasts don't do anything special to cider.  Yeast does make a difference in final flavor, but not as much as you think and it doesn't do the same things to cider as it does to beer.  Looking for clove and banana and pepper flavors from your yeast in cider?  Reality is different from expectations.

I agree.  I haven't found that yeast strain makes all that much difference in cider flavor.

[santoch]

I think I'll split my next batch and compare them side by side for myself.

[denny]

I think I'll split my next batch and compare them side by side for myself.

That's the thing to do

[Pricelessbrewing]

For cider I have three primary preferences for yeast selection, necessary aging time, sulfur output, and preferred temps. Flavor profile is relatively minor beyond that, as long as you supply an appropriate amount of nutrients.

Belle saison, and 3711 are great cider yeasts for these reasons. It likes room temp, low sulfur output, and is quite good 2 weeks in.

[santoch]

I think I'll split my next batch and compare them side by side for myself.

I re-read my earlier post and realize it might be taken as kind of snotty.
Sorry to both of my friends Denny and Dave.  I only meant that you guys convinced me that I should do a closer examination of them side by side.  Maybe the magic of Hutch's cider that was something other than his yeast choice.  You guys have really piqued my curiosity on this.

[dmtaylor]

I didn't hear anything snotty.  Sharing experiences is cool in my book.  In the end, the fact always remains: More experiments are needed.

Cheers!   

[SyCoNo0b]

Hello! So update on our Saison Cider - we named it Cinn-Saisonal Cidre, haha...and it was awesome! We added some cinnamon for flavoring. I made a tincture/extract using 3/4 cup of vodka and 3-2" sticks of cinnamon - i let the cinnamon sit in the vodka for about 2 weeks. It smelled soooooooooooooo good! But I used about half a cup of the tincture/extra that I made and mixed it with my 5 gallon cider once fermentation was complete. I let the cider sit for about 7 weeks in room temperature. It's ABV turned out to be 11.9% and it was awesome! Definitely a sipping cider, not for chugging! Great flavor for fans of robust drinks, or liquor drinkers. I did not back sweeten because I guess saison yeast keeps some sweetness and apple characters? I don't know, but it turned out really well! I'm actually going to try another batch and play around with some new spices, maybe mulled spices or apple pie spices. The world is my oyster. If you guys haven't tried using a Saison yeast, I say give it a try to see how different it tastes when compared to ciders made with other yeasts. Cheers!