Author Topic: Oktoberfest Ale  (Read 5479 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 03:48:22 PM »
Like Dave says, WY1007 is as close to a lager yeast as you can get in an ale yeast.  But no matter what yeast you use, it won't be very lager like unless you can find a way to ferment it cool and somehow keep it cold afterwards.

I don't know. Some of Brulosophy's exbeeriments might casually suggest that fermentis 34/70 can ferment above 60F with decent "lager-like" results. That dry strain seems to be fairly forgiving. That might also be an option for you. But either way, keeping your initial fermentation as cool as you can is really the key to producing a mock lager.

1007 works better.
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Offline denny

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 03:49:28 PM »

Great advice above. ...but yes, Cali Common is a true lager yeast used to ferment at Ale temps.


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Is it really a "true" lager yeast?
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Offline 3bbrewing

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 05:13:25 PM »
Hi Denny, what makes you question if cali common (WLP810 etc.) is a "true lager" yeast??  It definitely falls in the "hybrid yeast" category in that it can ferment well in a wide range of temps and/or temps not typical of the strain Saccharomyces Pastorianus, similar to other yeasts such as WLP862.  WLP810/2112/GY005 are listed as a lager yeast by White Labs, Wyeast, Gigayeast and others. 
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 05:16:01 PM by 3bbrewing »
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Offline denny

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 05:41:09 PM »
Hi Denny, what makes you question if cali common (WLP810 etc.) is a "true lager" yeast??  It definitely falls in the "hybrid yeast" category in that it can ferment well in a wide range of temps and/or temps not typical of the strain Saccharomyces Pastorianus, similar to other yeasts such as WLP862.  WLP810/2112/GY005 are listed as a lager yeast by White Labs, Wyeast, Gigayeast and others.

Although I've seen them listed as lager yeasts, I've also heard that they're more of a cross.  I have no idea of that's true, so I was hoping someone would have some verification, like a DNA analysis.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2016, 06:35:47 PM »
To the OP - you could also consider a simple fermenter box made of insulated foam insulation held together with some duct tape in which to put your fermenter or water bath for the fermenter.  It need not be fancy - indeed I know of guys that lager that way all the time.  With switching out frozen water bottles, you can lager pretty reliably, especially in a cool basement, if you have access to that.

Then you can use any lager yeast....
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Offline denny

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2016, 06:54:02 PM »
To the OP - you could also consider a simple fermenter box made of insulated foam insulation held together with some duct tape in which to put your fermenter or water bath for the fermenter.  It need not be fancy - indeed I know of guys that lager that way all the time.  With switching out frozen water bottles, you can lager pretty reliably, especially in a cool basement, if you have access to that.

Then you can use any lager yeast....

http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/son-of-fermentation-chiller/
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline deadpoetic0077

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2016, 09:28:41 PM »
To the OP - you could also consider a simple fermenter box made of insulated foam insulation held together with some duct tape in which to put your fermenter or water bath for the fermenter.  It need not be fancy - indeed I know of guys that lager that way all the time.  With switching out frozen water bottles, you can lager pretty reliably, especially in a cool basement, if you have access to that.

Then you can use any lager yeast....

http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/son-of-fermentation-chiller/

Now that's a pretty cool solution too. Doesn't look like itd be super costly either.

To everyone else with this discussion, I really appreciate all the input!

Thanks!

Offline BrewBama

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Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2016, 10:52:47 PM »

Great advice above. ...but yes, Cali Common is a true Lager yeast used to ferment at Ale temps.


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Is it really a "true" lager yeast?

Interesting. I've always read Cali Common (aka Steam Beer) is a lager brewed at ale temps. I never thought to question these sources. Here are some examples:

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf

"History: ...Fermented with a lager yeast, but one that was selected to ferment relatively clean beer at warmer temperatures..."

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/06/11/steam-beer-and-california-common-recipes-beer-styles/

"...it is a lager beer fermented at high temperatures (between 60-65F)..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer

"...brewed with lager yeast without the use of true refrigeration[1]..."

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/nevada/bre.htm

"The Carson Brewery made steam beer, a bottom-fermenting brew produced without the constant cold temperatures required by lagers."

http://www.beer-faq.com/steam-beer/

"Therefore, they created a brewing process that used a lager yeast (bottom fermentation), but fermented at ale (top fermentation) temperatures."

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« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 11:52:56 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline JJeffers09

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2016, 03:26:32 PM »
wlp060 is what I am thinking about using for an Oktoberfest.  My cold ferm chamber is full and I am going back to a swamp cooler days, should be fun.  Although I can stay on top of my brew all day since I work from home.
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Offline zwiller

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2016, 02:28:43 PM »
Another +1 for 2124/830/34-70 @ 60F. It's surprisingly clean at that temp - not as clean necessarily as a 50F ferment but clean enough not to be thought of as a 'mocktoberfest'.

Another happy guy with 3470 @ 60F.  I am BJCP and you are gonna have to bring your A game to successfully ID the differences in beers made 10 degrees apart with this yeast.  I think this is a huge game changer for homebrewers.  No fridge and no starter but yet good beer.  That said, I do think the 3470 needs fining.  It did not flocc well at all even cold crashed for me. 
Sam
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2016, 01:56:23 AM »
Another +1 for 2124/830/34-70 @ 60F. It's surprisingly clean at that temp - not as clean necessarily as a 50F ferment but clean enough not to be thought of as a 'mocktoberfest'.

Another happy guy with 3470 @ 60F.  I am BJCP and you are gonna have to bring your A game to successfully ID the differences in beers made 10 degrees apart with this yeast.  I think this is a huge game changer for homebrewers.  No fridge and no starter but yet good beer.  That said, I do think the 3470 needs fining.  It did not flocc well at all even cold crashed for me.
I agree - if you aren't equipped for an extended lagering period, then gelatin is your friend with 34/70.
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Offline deadpoetic0077

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2016, 06:03:32 PM »
Another +1 for 2124/830/34-70 @ 60F. It's surprisingly clean at that temp - not as clean necessarily as a 50F ferment but clean enough not to be thought of as a 'mocktoberfest'.

Another happy guy with 3470 @ 60F.  I am BJCP and you are gonna have to bring your A game to successfully ID the differences in beers made 10 degrees apart with this yeast.  I think this is a huge game changer for homebrewers.  No fridge and no starter but yet good beer.  That said, I do think the 3470 needs fining.  It did not flocc well at all even cold crashed for me.
I agree - if you aren't equipped for an extended lagering period, then gelatin is your friend with 34/70.

So I will be doing a BIAB for the recipe I listed in the first post and it uses irish moss. I have seen a lot more people using gelatin as opposed to irish moss. Is there any significant difference?

Also, this will be my first BIAB and I am wondering how much I should be using for my starting water. I have seen a lot of people use 6.5 when doing BIAB for a 5 gal batch. Does that seem about right? Also I have seen some people sparge when doing BIAB. Should you sparge to increase your efficiency when doing BIAB if you have a way of doing that? Such as a turkey frier with the bag attached to the fry basket?

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2016, 06:51:34 PM »
Another +1 for 2124/830/34-70 @ 60F. It's surprisingly clean at that temp - not as clean necessarily as a 50F ferment but clean enough not to be thought of as a 'mocktoberfest'.

Another happy guy with 3470 @ 60F.  I am BJCP and you are gonna have to bring your A game to successfully ID the differences in beers made 10 degrees apart with this yeast.  I think this is a huge game changer for homebrewers.  No fridge and no starter but yet good beer.  That said, I do think the 3470 needs fining.  It did not flocc well at all even cold crashed for me.
I agree - if you aren't equipped for an extended lagering period, then gelatin is your friend with 34/70.

So I will be doing a BIAB for the recipe I listed in the first post and it uses irish moss. I have seen a lot more people using gelatin as opposed to irish moss. Is there any significant difference?

Also, this will be my first BIAB and I am wondering how much I should be using for my starting water. I have seen a lot of people use 6.5 when doing BIAB for a 5 gal batch. Does that seem about right? Also I have seen some people sparge when doing BIAB. Should you sparge to increase your efficiency when doing BIAB if you have a way of doing that? Such as a turkey frier with the bag attached to the fry basket?

I have not yet attempted a BIAB batch, so I can't assist on that one.

But as for gelatin vs irish moss/whirlfloc tablets, gelatin is a post-fermentation fining agent that is used to help drop out yeast in suspension. It is typically added to a cold beer prior to packaging.
Irish moss/whirlfloc is a kettle fining agent that is added during the last 15 minutes (or so) of the boil to help clarify the wort when it is cooled prior to pitching your yeast.

Gelatin - post fermentation fining
Irish moss - kettle fining

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2016, 12:59:43 PM »
So I will be doing a BIAB for the recipe I listed in the first post and it uses irish moss. I have seen a lot more people using gelatin as opposed to irish moss. Is there any significant difference?

Also, this will be my first BIAB and I am wondering how much I should be using for my starting water. I have seen a lot of people use 6.5 when doing BIAB for a 5 gal batch. Does that seem about right? Also I have seen some people sparge when doing BIAB. Should you sparge to increase your efficiency when doing BIAB if you have a way of doing that? Such as a turkey frier with the bag attached to the fry basket?

Difference between Irish moss and gelatin: Gelatin works.  Irish moss doesn't always work.  That's my experience.

Grains soak up 0.1 gallons per pound, so account for the amount of grains when calculating water.  And then of course you'll probably be boiling off a gallon if you boil for 60-75 minutes, so add a gallon for that.  Then if you want to leave any sediment behind from the grains or cold break, add a quart or two for that.  You might need 6.5 gallons, might need 7 gallons -- it's all up to you and your own experience.  You'll have to play around for a couple of batches to find out all your own adjustments to use.

Yes, I am an advocate for sparging with BIAB to improve efficiency.  There's two ways of sparging BIAB that I have experience with:

1) The simple dunk sparge.  You need a separate kettle to heat up sparge water, and then either dunk the heavy grain bag into that kettle if it's big enough (probably not) or pour the hot water into a 6-gallon bucket and dunk that way, then mix all the wort back together into the main kettle.

2) The colander/basket sparge.  Still requires a second kettle for heating up sparge water.  From there you essentially have to place your grain bag into the colander or basket over yet another bucket and or drain the hot sparge water over it.  This method can be effective but is very very slow, and for that reason I don't do it much anymore.  Dunking is easy.

With these methods and a good crush, you can achieve 85-90% or even higher efficiency.  However, I'm also not an advocate for that either.  Sometimes, good enough really is good enough.  If your efficiency without a sparge is 75% or more, it might be best just to skip the sparge altogether, seriously.  I sparge nowadays for the biggest gravity beers, but for smaller beers (<1.055 or so) I usually skip it because you can get great efficiency just from draining the bag and moving on.

Enjoy.
Dave

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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Oktoberfest Ale
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2016, 03:16:52 AM »
To the OP - you could also consider a simple fermenter box made of insulated foam insulation held together with some duct tape in which to put your fermenter or water bath for the fermenter.  It need not be fancy - indeed I know of guys that lager that way all the time.  With switching out frozen water bottles, you can lager pretty reliably, especially in a cool basement, if you have access to that.

Then you can use any lager yeast....

http://www.ihomebrewsolutions.com/son-of-fermentation-chiller/

If your ambient air is cool enough (maybe not so easy this time of year) I've found it's easier just to put the fermenter in a rubbermaid tub filled with water and add frozen 1 liter ice bottles.  I cover it with pink foam insulation, but if you could wrap it with that stuff it would work even better.  Low tech, but it works.  Better yet would be a cooler that fits a carboy.
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