Author Topic: first saison  (Read 2251 times)

Offline goschman

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first saison
« on: July 13, 2016, 04:01:33 PM »
First go round at a saison as my last attempt didn't have the proper yeast and turned out to be closer to a wit. Kind of going for a kitchen sink type thing here with a couple of questions.

First, will the hops clash with the lemon and basil additions? Should I scale the finishing hops back or remove them all together? I wanted to do something more hop forward but figured I shouldn't go too hoppy with the basil and lemon...

Second, can I expect 90% or greater attenuation from Belle Saison? What mash temp should I use? Should I add any sugar?

Lastly, do I need to even worry about color? This is calculated to be super light at around 3.7 SRM

72.1% pilsner
9.3% rye
9.3% wheat
9.3% flaked oats

~24 IBU
magnum 60 min
1 oz willamette 5 min
1/2 oz centennial 5 min

1/2 oz fresh sweet basil 5 min
zest of 2 lemons 5 min

Belle Saison started at 64F then let free rise above 75F after the first few days.

OG 1.052
FG 1.005? (considering 90% attenuation)
On Tap/Bottled: Amber Rye, Hazeless Daze IPA, Gringo Mexican Lager, G Pils, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting: Maibock
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: first saison
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2016, 04:15:22 PM »
Saison is a pretty wide open style so you'll get lots of different answers. Don't worry about it being too light - saisons are all over the map in terms of color (and flavor). Mine is light, too. But it needs to be highly attenuated, and Belle will get you there. Mashing @ 147-148F/ 90 mins will get it down to the 1.004-1.002 range or slightly lower, but Belle will leave a nice mouthfeel. As for the hops, it's personal preference. I wouldn't go too heavy with late hops given the lemon and basil additions. But if it sounds good, go for it.


Edit for piss poor spelling.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 04:21:55 PM by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Offline goschman

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Re: first saison
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2016, 04:18:54 PM »
Sasion is a pretty wide open style so you'll get lots of different answers. Don't worry about it being too light - sasions are all over the map in terms of color (and flavor). Mine is light, too. But it needs to be highly attenuated, and Belle will get you there. Mashing @ 147-148F/ 90 mins will get it down to the 1.004-1.002 range or slightly lower, but Belle will leave a nice mouthfeel. As for the hops, it's personal preference. I wouldn't go too heavy with late hops given the lemon and basil additions. But if it sounds good, go for it.

Thanks Jon. I thought I might get a wide range of responses since it is such an open style. I will plan on extending my mash to 90 min.
On Tap/Bottled: Amber Rye, Hazeless Daze IPA, Gringo Mexican Lager, G Pils, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting: Maibock
Up Next: Gringo, Pils?

Offline kmccaf

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Re: first saison
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 04:49:01 PM »
Personally, I would go with a higher percentage of Rye. Anything below 20% I do not find to be noticeable. Looks good otherwise.
Kyle M.

Offline goschman

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Re: first saison
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 05:11:39 PM »
Personally, I would go with a higher percentage of Rye. Anything below 20% I do not find to be noticeable. Looks good otherwise.

That's solid advice.
On Tap/Bottled: Amber Rye, Hazeless Daze IPA, Gringo Mexican Lager, G Pils, Doppelbraun                

Fermenting: Maibock
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: first saison
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 05:33:48 PM »
Is a low mash temp even required to dry out a saison wort using the Belle strain?

I bet if you mashed at 152F for 60 min. the beer would still dry out to low single digits.

Offline Stevie

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Re: first saison
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 05:41:46 PM »
Is a low mash temp even required to dry out a saison wort using the Belle strain?

I bet if you mashed at 152F for 60 min. the beer would still dry out to low single digits.
My last saison was mashed at 147 for 90 and only got to 1.008 with belle saison. Same beer with 3711 or 3724 has finished below 1.005.

After one use I am not a fan of the flavor from Belle Saison and will not be trying it again.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: first saison
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 05:43:43 PM »
Is a low mash temp even required to dry out a saison wort using the Belle strain?

I bet if you mashed at 152F for 60 min. the beer would still dry out to low single digits.
My last saison was mashed at 147 for 90 and only got to 1.008 with belle saison. Same beer with 3711 or 3724 has finished below 1.005.

After one use I am not a fan of the flavor from Belle Saison and will not be trying it again.

Agreed. I definitely prefer 3724 over both 3711 and belle.

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: first saison
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 05:49:14 PM »
I certainly wouldn't recommend 3724 for a first saison attempt.  It's just too darn needy.

I'm not familiar with Belle, but 3711 is easy to use and I like the results I get.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline goschman

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Re: first saison
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 06:10:59 PM »
As rare as it might be, I prefer 3711 against 3724 in saisons I have tasted and don't want to worry about the dreaded stall. I really like 3711 and heard that Belle is similar. I have had a packet in the fridge for quite a while that needs to be used.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:23:26 PM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Amber Rye, Hazeless Daze IPA, Gringo Mexican Lager, G Pils, Doppelbraun                

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Up Next: Gringo, Pils?

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: first saison
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 06:20:09 PM »
I think your recipe is great, the ingredients will not clash but should work well.

Belle Saison yeast has about 96% apparent attenuation.  I think your final gravity will probably be about 1.002, and that's without any added sugar.  Add a half pound or pound of sugar if you like and it could fall to 1.000 or anywhere in those ballparks.

Key thing to note, though: Belle/3711 is a trickster yeast.  You'll think it's done fermenting after a week or whatever, but it's not.  Let it sit for an entire month if you want low gravity.  It will keep on chugging very very very slooooooowly over the course of three more weeks.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:24:08 PM by dmtaylor »
Dave

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: first saison
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 06:21:31 PM »
I'm not familiar with Belle, but 3711 is easy to use and I like the results I get.

Belle=3711
Dave

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Offline Stevie

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Re: first saison
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 06:24:56 PM »
I'm not familiar with Belle, but 3711 is easy to use and I like the results I get.

Belle=3711
Maybe, but they might have different properties. I didn't like my results with Belle. I know some folks prefer 1056 over 001 over US05 over what ever other Chico strains are out there.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: first saison
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 06:26:29 PM »
My last saison was mashed at 147 for 90 and only got to 1.008 with belle saison. Same beer with 3711 or 3724 has finished below 1.005.

After one use I am not a fan of the flavor from Belle Saison and will not be trying it again.

I'm curious if you gave it enough time.  Takes a whole month, even fermented in the mid-70s or hotter.  I start mine in the upper 60s then bring to about 75-76 F for a whole month.  Finishes rock bottom around 1.002 or whatever.

As for flavor, I love it.  It is mild but characterful, a little peppery spice and a little lemony.
Dave

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: first saison
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 06:28:12 PM »
they might have different properties. I didn't like my results with Belle. I know some folks prefer 1056 over 001 over US05 over what ever other Chico strains are out there.

You are correct.  Accept all of the above with grains of salt.  Yeasts from different manufacturers are all slightly different, even from the same original sources.  I totally agree.
Dave

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