Author Topic: first saison  (Read 2530 times)

Offline Stevie

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first saison
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2016, 06:28:57 PM »
My last saison was mashed at 147 for 90 and only got to 1.008 with belle saison. Same beer with 3711 or 3724 has finished below 1.005.

After one use I am not a fan of the flavor from Belle Saison and will not be trying it again.

I'm curious if you gave it enough time.  Takes a whole month, even fermented in the mid-70s or hotter.  I start mine in the upper 60s then bring to about 75-76 F for a whole month.  Finishes rock bottom around 1.002 or whatever.

As for flavor, I love it.  It is mild but characterful, a little peppery spice and a little lemony.
Went three weeks which leads me even further to believe that it isn't the same as 3711 when I can get something in the keg in <14 days, even when pitching a little low. I typically start at 68 and let it free rise to 74

Edit to add - it was at 1.008 for 8 days before I kegged.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: first saison
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2016, 06:31:39 PM »
Went three weeks which leads me even further to believe that it isn't the same as 3711 when I can get something in the keg in <14 days, even when pitching a little low. I typically start at 68 and let it free rise to 74

Edit to add - it was at 1.008 for 8 days before I kegged.

Oh... good data.  I hadn't heard of these kinds of differences previously but will keep on the lookout for more such data.  I love dry yeasts so I'm sure I'm biased as well.
Dave

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Offline Phil_M

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Re: first saison
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2016, 06:31:52 PM »
FWIW, I've used 3724 in three separate saisons now. First finished at about 95% AA, pure 3724 and warm temps. The second I pitched 3711 later in the fermentation to ensure the high ABV of this beer didn't slow down the 3724, I wanted this beer to finish quickly. Third I stalled on purpose to inoculate with Orval dregs.

It's a tricky yeast, but it's certainly not an impossible or painful yeast. Pitch a healthy starter, cover the fermentor with foil for the first few days, then airlock and ramp temps up. It's like the opposite of a lager.

Take all this with a grain of salt though, I do not like 3711. As in I no longer buy craft Saison's because I don't know if they used 3711 or not.

I'm hoping I get the time to make a quick all pils malt 4% abv-ish saison before the summer is out.

Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: first saison
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2016, 06:34:21 PM »
I do not like 3711. As in I no longer buy craft Saison's because I don't know if they used 3711 or not.

Wow, that's some dislike.  Personally, I no longer buy craft saisons because....

They're friggin overpriced and often/usually "meh".
Dave

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Offline Stevie

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Re: first saison
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2016, 06:35:42 PM »
Oh... good data.  I hadn't heard of these kinds of differences previously but will keep on the lookout for more such data.  I love dry yeasts so I'm sure I'm biased as well.
I'm also getting bored with 3711 and will be looking to maintain some sort of blend at some point. Want to try the Imperial Rustic strain, but MoreBeer isn't restocking and I don't know if I can put a large enough order with Seven Bridges to justify the shipping. Also thinking about taking all of yeastbay's clean strains and dumping it into one batch.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: first saison
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2016, 06:38:13 PM »
I do not like 3711. As in I no longer buy craft Saison's because I don't know if they used 3711 or not.

Wow, that's some dislike.  Personally, I no longer buy craft saisons because....

They're friggin overpriced and often/usually "meh".

Well, there's that too...truthfully I wish some craft brewery would try and just make a good simple Dupont-like Saison.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline redzim

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Re: first saison
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2016, 06:38:22 PM »
great thread because I brewed my first Saison yesterday using a recipe from NB (93% Castle Belgian Pale, 7% C-20). came out to 1.055 OG, I pitched some Belle at 65F and just left it in a 70F room. 24hours later it is fermenting madly at 74F (warmer than the ambient).   I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do now... just let her run in the mid 70s for 3 weeks?  I'm more of a German lager guy so this is all a bit new and counter-intuitive.  (and then should I be crash cooling before transferring to kegs to carb? and how long should it "lager"?)

red

Offline Stevie

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Re: first saison
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2016, 06:39:25 PM »
I think you are doing it right Red.

Offline Phil_M

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Re: first saison
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2016, 06:45:13 PM »
Yep, just let'r rip in the mid 70's. My first 3724 Saison ended up in the upper 90's towards the end of fermentation. It tasted great, till an infection became apparent weeks after I bottled it all. (Blowoff tube contaminated the batch)
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline redzim

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Re: first saison
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2016, 06:50:01 PM »
When does the mythical stall rear up? or phrased better, when should I bother taking the first gravity test?

And how long does one age a Saison before drinking?

Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: first saison
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2016, 06:54:53 PM »
When does the mythical stall rear up? or phrased better, when should I bother taking the first gravity test?

And how long does one age a Saison before drinking?

The stall comes with 3724.  Since you used Belle you shouldn't have to worry.

I like my saisons fresh, but they always taste better as the keg is running out.  I'd say they're at their best after three weeks in the keg.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline Stevie

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Re: first saison
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2016, 07:10:27 PM »
I agree with Joe with the condition that fermentation temps are held low-ish. Saisons fermented above 76° need a couple of months to mellow out the fusel alcohols.

Offline 69franx

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Re: first saison
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2016, 07:16:43 PM »
Great timing on this thread, as my next brew day is my third batch of a saison recipe I got from @AmandaK, and I have some of the same questions as Goschman. The recipe is pretty simple and I have loved it the first 2 times I brewed it:
9# Weyermann Pilsner
1# Weyermann Munich I
1oz Willamette to bitter
1oz Nelson @ 20
1oz Nelson @ Flameout
Originally just 3724, but will be using a blend of 3724 and 3711 per Jon's suggestion for this batch
OG: 1.051, IBUs: 48, SRM: 4.4, ABV: 5.8-6+ depending on how the blend does

For this batch, I am doubling the size to 10 gallons and then will split for secondary. Half will get 7.5# crushed and frozen blackberries and the other half will get some fresh picked garden Lemon Balm. I really have no reason to change the grist at all, as like I said, I have liked the brew both times so far. My questions are as follows:
1) With the secondary items, should I just go with the Willamette to bitter and skip the late and FO Nelson, or just possibly lower the amounts?
2) Any thoughts on how much fresh picked (like the day of transfer) Lemon balm to use for 5 gallons less transfer loss?
3) Would you change any of the hop varieties to help accentuate either the blackberries or the lemon balm? I have 20+# of random varieties on hand: I do have El Dorado, but no Lemon Drop. If its semi popular, I likely have some on hand

Anything anyone can offer would be great, thinking I should follow Jon's suggestion above to lower or eliminate the late hop additions, at least for the blackberry version, at least until anyone has a different thought.
Sorry to semi/fully highjack Goschman
Frank L.
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Offline goschman

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Re: first saison
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2016, 07:47:50 PM »
Hijack away. I think I got what I needed. Just need to make a decision regarding the amount of rye and possibly the hops.

Not trying to start a 3724 vs 3711 argument as that is obviously a personal preference.

69franx: how is that hop character at 48 IBUs? I have been going back and forth with the prospect of using basil/lemon or going hoppy instead.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 07:51:24 PM by goschman »
On Tap/Bottled: Kurbis Marzen, Hazeless Daze IPA, Vienna Lager, Dry Hopped Peach Cider       

Fermenting: Red Rye
Up Next: Hopfenbier, Braunbier

Offline 69franx

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Re: first saison
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2016, 08:31:12 PM »
     Although it is way over style at 48.8 IBUs, only 21.2 come from the bittering charge, so to me it does not come off as overly bitter. When I first made it, it was the first saison I had made. It came out as I had expected, thus I have remade it 1x and again in 2 weeks. The Nelson at 20 minutes adds 27.6 IBUs, but with the Nelson character added that late, I really dont perceive too much bitterness from that charge.
     I guess I am wondering most about whether or not the secondary ingredients will drown out the Nelson completely, making it easy to drop it from the recipe. In that case, I would likely up the Willamette to keep the IBUs up there to offset some of the sweetness from the blackberries. The lemon balm is just something we have growing in the garden after reading about someone adding it to a saison a couple years back. I really have no strong idea about what it will bring or how powerful it will be in the finished product, hence my questions. Just trying to learn something new everyday I guess
Frank L.
Fermenting:
Conditioning:
In keg: Märzen
In Bottles:  
In the works: