[war2112]

Hello all,

After 10 batches of extract/steeping grain kits, I have decided to create my own. I am trying to create a somewhat malty pale ale. I am looking for some bready malt character with some citrusy hops. Here is the recipe and my procedure:

3.3 lbs. Maris Otter LME
2.0 lbs. Briess light DME

0,75 lbs. melanoidin crushed grains (steep)
0.25 lbs. crystal 20L crushed grains (steep)
0.25 lbs. Carapils crushed grains (steep)
0.25 lbs. Aromatic crushed grains (steep)

0,50 oz. Centennial hops
0.50 oz. Galaxy hops
0.50 oz. Amarillo hops
1.0 oz. Citra hops

OG: 1.042
FG : We'll see! (shooting for 1.008)

So I steeped the grains for 30 minutes. Added the malt after and brought to a boil. Centennial hops at 60 min., Galaxy at 20 min., Amarillo at 5 min., and did a hopstand with the Citra.

After getting the wort cooled, I went to pitch my smack pack of Wyeast 1318 (the LHBS recommended though I was leaning towards US-04). Dammit, the pack never broke and with my hands slick from sanitizer, I spilled almost the whole packet of yeast on the kitchen floor when that unbroken pack shifted. I was able to squirt a few drops into the fermenter.

Well, I just so happened to have an old pack of Cooper's yeast that came with a can of LME. I did have in the fridge but it had been under very suspect storage conditions and was a year old. But I feltt I needed to get something in there even though I prob could have waited til the next night.

Anyway, got a pack of US-04 when I was at work and as soon as I got home I sanitized my hands and opened the fermenter. There was slight activity going on so I decided to hold off on pitching that US-04. Kind of glad that I did because there is vigorous fermentation underway and I have never mixed different strains.

I realize the old yeast is probably going to give me some profile I am not looking for. Maybe I will get lucky  -who knows.

What do you guys thing of the recipe?



 

[santoch]

Aromatic and Melanoidan malts do not have the enzymes needed to convert their starches.  They therefore must be mashed in the presence of another malt that has the diastatic power (DP) to do so, such as 2 row or pilsner malt.  Crystal / Caramel malt has already been mashed, so that malt can be steeped and are not an issue.  Briess Carapils is not completely converted so it too should be mashed.

You likely have unconverted starch in your wort.  It will not have good shelf stability.  There really is not any good way to recover from this unless you pitch bugs and sour it.  Amylase enzyme (such as beano) can convert the starch, but leave the body very very, thin.  I'd recommend you just drink them fast.

Next time, ensure that all of the malts you are using can be steeped, or alternatively, do a partial mash by adding about a lb and a half of 2 row, 6 row, or pilsner malt per lb of unconverted specialty malt, and steep them together at a pH of 5.2 held at 150F for about 30-45 mins.  Use about 2 quarts per lb of grain in your mini-mash.  See Palmer's How to Brew for in-depth info on it.

Mashing is not difficult.  You just need to be more particular about temp and pH.

Good luck, and feel free to ask if you have any questions about which grains need to be mashed and which are ok to just steep.

HTH-

-Steve

[war2112]

Aromatic and Melanoidan malts do not have the enzymes needed to convert their starches.  They therefore must be mashed in the presence of another malt that has the diastatic power (DP) to do so, such as 2 row or pilsner malt.  Crystal / Caramel malt has already been mashed, so that malt can be steeped and are not an issue.  Briess Carapils is not completely converted so it too should be mashed.

You likely have unconverted starch in your wort.  It will not have good shelf stability.  There really is not any good way to recover from this unless you pitch bugs and sour it.  Amylase enzyme (such as beano) can convert the starch, but leave the body very very, thin.  I'd recommend you just drink them fast.

Next time, ensure that all of the malts you are using can be steeped, or alternatively, do a partial mash by adding about a lb and a half of 2 row, 6 row, or pilsner malt per lb of unconverted specialty malt, and steep them together at a pH of 5.2 held at 150F for about 30-45 mins.  Use about 2 quarts per lb of grain in your mini-mash.  See Palmer's How to Brew for in-depth info on it.

Mashing is not difficult.  You just need to be more particular about temp and pH.

Good luck, and feel free to ask if you have any questions about which grains need to be mashed and which are ok to just steep.

HTH-

-Steve

I should have been more clear. The aromatic and melanoidin are steeping grains. I have used them in the pre-packaged kits from the LHBS and that is what they are for. They work in this capacity extremely well. I have turned out a couple of stouts, couple of pale ales, a kolsch, California common etc. using the steeping grain method. Great beer comes out. These are steeping grains.

So I'm afraid either I wasn't clear or we must disagree. These are steeping grains and I have never had unconverted starch. No way I am at a loss here save for the fact that the yeast was not what I wanted to pitch. Making great beer, not just my opinion but the opinion of others.

[Hickory]

Unfortunately it's not an opinion that those malts are not steeping grains, just a simple fact. Neither one of them have enough diastatic power to self convert. I'll provide you some links. However, I believe you mistook what Steve was trying to say. He wasn't saying you aren't making good beer, only that to get full use out of those particular grains, they need to be mashed. I'm sure your beers are tasting great! And I bet if you mashed them they would be even more great!

http://www.brewunited.com/grain_database.php

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_AromaticMunichMalt.pdf

Edit for poor grammar.

[war2112]

Unfortunately it's not an opinion that those malts are not steeping grains, just a simple fact. Neither one of them have enough diastatic power to self convert. I'll provide you some links. However, I believe you mistook what Steve was trying to say. He wasn't saying you aren't making good beer, only that to get full use out of those particular grains, they need to be mashed. I'm sure your beers are tasting great! And I bet if you mashed them they would be even more great!

http://www.brewunited.com/grain_database.php

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_AromaticMunichMalt.pdf

Edit for poor grammar.

I am referring to this quote from Santoch:

"You likely have unconverted starch in your wort.  It will not have good shelf stability.  There really is not any good way to recover from this unless you pitch bugs and sour it.  Amylase enzyme (such as beano) can convert the starch, but leave the body very very, thin.  I'd recommend you just drink them fast."

That is utterly, completely, massively flat out wrong. I have completed 10 extract/steeping grain batches and if I had tried to "brett" them up I would have really missed out.

The beers are improving with age in the bottles. If I drink them fast (I am prone to get impatient) then I miss out on what they truly become. In every batch that has been the case. I have seen noticeable improvement with age in the bottles.

That is all I am saying. Saying that the only recourse is to brett them is wrong. The empirical evidence says no way. A BJCP judge has tasted my beers on an informal basis and given honest feedback. She told me flat out that I was brewing good beers so what gives?

If they were that bad that the only recourse was to brett them then I am at a loss.

[Stevie]

Yes, aromatic and melanoidin need to be mashed, but the amount used is fairly low. Without enzymes from a base grain, they will not convert completely, but they do offer some enzymes on their own. 9 recipes from Brewing Classic Styles use aromatic for what it's worth.

If you're happy with your results, keep doing it. If you end up with persistent infections, consider performing a mini-mash by tossing a pound of base malt in there or moving to all-grain. Obviously you would need to examine your sanitation practices too.

Carapils is likely not needed with extract brewing, but it's fine and a 4 ounces won't do much.

[brewinhard]

+1 to your selected grains as not having enough diastatic power to convert on their own. You are probably not observing any issues with this simply because of the small amounts of steeping grains you are utilizing.

I believe all Steve was trying to say was that your beers have more of a "potential" to have stability problems possibly due to unconverted starches that have remained and been "fixed" by the subsequent boil. If there are starches remaining in the final product, over time, they can be a food/nutrient source for contaminant bacteria and wild yeast if your sanitation is not up to par. Keep in mind, that even the cleanliest, most anal sanitizing homebrewer has trace amounts of bacteria/wild yeast that survive the boil. Just how this hobby rolls, I guess.

So we, as homebrewers, try to minimize any population that might negatively produce off-flavors in our beers with proper cleaning regimens and sanitation along with reducing any potential "food" sources these organisms might have a chance to feed on (ie unconverted starches from grains).

With that being said, what did you think of the Maris Otter LME?  Great hop combination by the way too!

[santoch]

Just to clear things up, steeping is similar but not the same as mashing.  Steeping simply washes sugars and similar flavor/color/aroma compounds from those grains.  No chemical processes are involved besides dissolving them in the water. Since no starches were present, no starches are left over. Temperature is pretty much wide open (ie, they recommend to just keep it below about 170F), and pH is usually just ignored - its not factor with most household water.

On the other hand, mashing involves enzymatic conversion of starches into sugars, which requires suitable temperature and pH (dissolved mineral) conditions in the water.  Dissolving of the color and flavor compounds also happens in the mash, just like in steeping.  Note that the conditions favorable for mashing are a small subset of the conditions favorable for steeping.

As the others agreed with me, and which I said awkwardly, long term stability is at risk if unconverted starches are present.  I'll rephrase/repeat what I said before.  There is no QUICK GOOD FIX to rid starches from a fermented beer so that they will remain the same and still gain long term stability.  You either need to drink them before they turn, add amylase enzyme which will thin out the beer a lot, or pitch bacteria/yeast that is capable of processing the starch in a controlled way as opposed to them taking hold in the package.

HTH-

[war2112]

Just to clear things up, steeping is similar but not the same as mashing.  Steeping simply washes sugars and similar flavor/color/aroma compounds from those grains.  No chemical processes are involved besides dissolving them in the water. Since no starches were present, no starches are left over. Temperature is pretty much wide open (ie, they recommend to just keep it below about 170F), and pH is usually just ignored - its not factor with most household water.

On the other hand, mashing involves enzymatic conversion of starches into sugars, which requires suitable temperature and pH (dissolved mineral) conditions in the water.  Dissolving of the color and flavor compounds also happens in the mash, just like in steeping.  Note that the conditions favorable for mashing are a small subset of the conditions favorable for steeping.

As the others agreed with me, and which I said awkwardly, long term stability is at risk if unconverted starches are present.  I'll rephrase/repeat what I said before.  There is no QUICK GOOD FIX to rid starches from a fermented beer so that they will remain the same and still gain long term stability.  You either need to drink them before they turn, add amylase enzyme which will thin out the beer a lot, or pitch bacteria/yeast that is capable of processing the starch in a controlled way as opposed to them taking hold in the package.

HTH-

Mea Culpa, sorry for my testy response.

I appreciate your advice and I have researched the links the others provided in terms of diastatic power. I will respond to those as well. I get what you are saying and thank you for the advice.

I do not yet have the ability to jump to all grain right now so next time I will do a mini mash for those specialty grains using a couple of pounds of 2-row to convert. Or whatever amount of 2-row you think would work. Then I can add that to the DME or LME.

I do use RO water for my batches but realize I would have to adjust the PH a little for the mini-mash portion.

As it is, this beer is turning out very nicely. I realize it could be better following your advice. But I am happy that it has turned out as well as it has especially using that unspecified yeast. Geez, maybe that was the way to go! I mean, it is what I wanted. Grapefruit on the nose and the taste follows. I was going for something like Three Floyd's Yum-Yum with my limited experience. Darned if it is not close!

It may be a little too bit on the bitter side but I think that will mellow. It is only 6 days old in bottles. I'd like to taste a little more malt backbone but that is probably due to the issues you described i terms of starched from those grains that should be mashed.

Again, thanks for the advice.

[war2112]

+1 to your selected grains as not having enough diastatic power to convert on their own. You are probably not observing any issues with this simply because of the small amounts of steeping grains you are utilizing.

I believe all Steve was trying to say was that your beers have more of a "potential" to have stability problems possibly due to unconverted starches that have remained and been "fixed" by the subsequent boil. If there are starches remaining in the final product, over time, they can be a food/nutrient source for contaminant bacteria and wild yeast if your sanitation is not up to par. Keep in mind, that even the cleanliest, most anal sanitizing homebrewer has trace amounts of bacteria/wild yeast that survive the boil. Just how this hobby rolls, I guess.

So we, as homebrewers, try to minimize any population that might negatively produce off-flavors in our beers with proper cleaning regimens and sanitation along with reducing any potential "food" sources these organisms might have a chance to feed on (ie unconverted starches from grains).

With that being said, what did you think of the Maris Otter LME?  Great hop combination by the way too!

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, I already responded to Steve and appreciate the advice from all about the grains that need to be mashed.

Thankfully, I am very sanitary so I guess that is in my favor but I see what you mean about providing any potential food sources for the nasty buggers!

The Maris Otter? Oh man, I am loving it! I have never used it before and I got a fresh can. I have been using Briess DME for my extract I gotta say I love the Maris Otter.

Thanks for the thumbs up on the hops. Yeah, for a newbie trying to create my own hop schedule it seems to have worked. This beer is actually turning out quite nicely. I am certain it would be even better following all of yours and Steve's advice. But is is what I was looking for,

Thanks again!

[santoch]

A next step for you would be to read Ray Daniels' book "Designing Great Beers".  It is a bit dated now, but the concepts are sound.  Pair it up with the latest grain descriptions and the latest hop descriptions from Yakima Chief Hop Union (https://ychhops.com/varieties) and you still have a winner.

[war2112]

+1 to your selected grains as not having enough diastatic power to convert on their own. You are probably not observing any issues with this simply because of the small amounts of steeping grains you are utilizing.

I believe all Steve was trying to say was that your beers have more of a "potential" to have stability problems possibly due to unconverted starches that have remained and been "fixed" by the subsequent boil. If there are starches remaining in the final product, over time, they can be a food/nutrient source for contaminant bacteria and wild yeast if your sanitation is not up to par. Keep in mind, that even the cleanliest, most anal sanitizing homebrewer has trace amounts of bacteria/wild yeast that survive the boil. Just how this hobby rolls, I guess.

So we, as homebrewers, try to minimize any population that might negatively produce off-flavors in our beers with proper cleaning regimens and sanitation along with reducing any potential "food" sources these organisms might have a chance to feed on (ie unconverted starches from grains).

With that being said, what did you think of the Maris Otter LME?  Great hop combination by the way too!

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, I already responded to Steve and appreciate the advice from all about the grains that need to be mashed.

Thankfully, I am very sanitary so I guess that is in my favor but I see what you mean about providing any potential food sources for the nasty buggers!

The Maris Otter? Oh man, I am loving it! I have never used it before and I got a fresh can. I have been using Briess DME for my extract I gotta say I love the Maris Otter.

Thanks for the thumbs up on the hops. Yeah, for a newbie trying to create my own hop schedule it seems to have worked. This beer is actually turning out quite nicely. I am certain it would be even better following all of yours and Steve's advice. But is is what I was looking for,

Thanks again!

I re-did this recipe with a few changes based on the advice. The first batch turned out quite well but this time around it is definitely better. The best beer I have brewed for sure. Here is the grain bill, pre-boil extract additions, and hop schedule:

1.5 lbs 2-row
.75 lb. Melanoidin
.25 lb. Crystal 20L
.25 lb. Carapils
.25 lb. Aromatic

I mashed these together in a muslin bag at 140 degrees F for 45 minutes in a very clean cooler. I am not an all grain brewer so I improvised this as sort of a mini-mash tun. I drained the bag real good to get all the good stuff.

I poured this into my stovetop kettle and stirred in 3.3 lbs. Maris Otter LME and 2 lbs. Pilsner light DME.

After the hot break, I added .5 oz. Centennial, then .5 oz. Galaxy at 30 minutes, then .5 oz. Amarillo at 20 minutes and then 1 oz. Citra as a hopstand. Pitched US-05 because I like the clean profile as I ferment in a water bath and have to try to keep esters down. OG was 1.042 and finished off at 1.007.

Primed at 2 volumes with corn sugar.

Been in the bottles for 5 days and I sampled one just to see. Oh my, very good!! I am very happy right now. Nice up front grapefruit punch both on the nose and in taste. Malty enough to support the hop profile. Nice light amber color and very very clear.

Hopefully I'll get a pic up soon!