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Author Topic: 30m boil help  (Read 9971 times)

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 08:13:33 am »
Small scale trial is probably the way to go.  The times I quoted were based on what I found in my research for home made malt but I plan to play it by nose and heat until things smells good.  50/50 chance me thinks.  Maybe nothing will happen since I am at low temps and the magic happens hotter/roasting/maillard...  I do alot of cooking and one of my techniques is to park cooked/grilled food in the oven at 170F until serving to ensure the entire meal is ready at same time and it is quite surprising how long you can get away with it.  Nothing browns or overcooks but a few things will dry out a bit if not covered when parked a long time.  If I get pseudo scientific about re-kilning, dare I say that if I am removing moisture (water>h20) from the malt aren't I am removing a potential oxidative agent? 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline CASK1

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2016, 10:07:33 am »
Another issue that hasn't been discussed yet is hot break. You need a good hot break to coagulate and remove undesirable proteins and polyphenols. I'm not sure that would be fully accomplished in 30 minutes, increasing risk of astringency and chill haze in your beer.

There used to be a question on nearly every written BJCP exam (the old version) that asked the examinee to list and describe 5 or more reasons to boil wort. From the study guide-

Boiling wort is normally required for the following reasons:

1. Extracts, isomerizes and dissolves the hop α-acids
2. Stops enzymatic activity
3. Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
4. Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
5. Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters
6. Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars (although this is not desirable in all styles)
7. Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity (this is not a primary reason, it's a side effect of the process)

You can account for or not worry too much about some of these, but a short boil risks issues with the finished beer.

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2016, 11:04:25 am »
I remember that question  ;D  While I agree that boiling does those things, I would argue how long it takes to achieve.  IE - I would think the main benefits of boiling (sterilization) occur in like 10-15m tops, maybe even protein coagulation too.  WRT to proteins and polyphenols: I think wort pH (and Ca) play a significant role in the reduction of these matters during the boil and I will be dialing pH in via BNW.  I also use both whirlfloc and polyclar in the boil and have a level of confidence these products will resolve any issue I would have (if I did). 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline Phil_M

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 11:12:18 am »
Sterilization does take longer than 10-15 minutes, assuming a sea level pressure/212o boiling point. That's why we have to use pressure canners to make canned starters.

A normal boil isn't long enough to sterilize the wort either, IIRC, but I don't have the time/temp chart for sterilization handy.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2016, 11:41:57 am »
The chart in this article? http://www.morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.2/raines.html  I will not deny that basically there is ALWAYS some level of contamination unless taken to extremes...
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2016, 02:15:54 pm »
So my first 30m boil is in the history books...  I really liked how it fit into the brew session.  Everything seemed to flow and there was not much waiting whereas as the 60m boil was always dragging on.  Nothing radically different to report at this point. 

When I was setting up session in Promash there is a field for boil length and all I had to do was change to 30m and all worked out pretty easy.  The IBU changes were pretty minor from 60m to 30m and so was the water (about .75G).  We shall see...
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline beersk

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2016, 05:39:18 pm »
So my first 30m boil is in the history books...  I really liked how it fit into the brew session.  Everything seemed to flow and there was not much waiting whereas as the 60m boil was always dragging on.  Nothing radically different to report at this point. 

When I was setting up session in Promash there is a field for boil length and all I had to do was change to 30m and all worked out pretty easy.  The IBU changes were pretty minor from 60m to 30m and so was the water (about .75G).  We shall see...
Did you boil vigorously or was it like a hard simmer like the GBF guys say (heat stress and all)? I boiled my pumpkin oktoberfest this past weekend for 45 minutes at a hard simmer. Probably had 9-10% boil off. Doubting any DMS formed, but always nervous about it.
Jesse

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 07:52:28 pm »
I didn't really overthink it and did like I always did which is a hard simmer based on info out there.  Honestly, I am using the LODO thing here as a cop out to shorten brew day.  If there is any benefit, great, but that is not my intention.  If this beer is off for some reason I do plan to kick the boil up higher than typical and see if it fixes things before I give up on the short boil.  While boil off rate is influenced by many things like ambient air temp and humidity, I typically averaged 15% on the 60m boil so half that is still better than what I see thrown around on the pro forums (5%). 

Approaching high krausen now and everything seems in order. 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline beersk

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2016, 08:29:21 pm »
I didn't really overthink it and did like I always did which is a hard simmer based on info out there.  Honestly, I am using the LODO thing here as a cop out to shorten brew day.  If there is any benefit, great, but that is not my intention.  If this beer is off for some reason I do plan to kick the boil up higher than typical and see if it fixes things before I give up on the short boil.  While boil off rate is influenced by many things like ambient air temp and humidity, I typically averaged 15% on the 60m boil so half that is still better than what I see thrown around on the pro forums (5%). 

Approaching high krausen now and everything seems in order. 
How is the low DO thing shortening your brew session? It doesn't add much to my brew session, about 15-20 minutes, but I don't see how it shortens your session.
Jesse

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2016, 06:31:25 am »
I didn't really overthink it and did like I always did which is a hard simmer based on info out there.  Honestly, I am using the LODO thing here as a cop out to shorten brew day.  If there is any benefit, great, but that is not my intention.  If this beer is off for some reason I do plan to kick the boil up higher than typical and see if it fixes things before I give up on the short boil.  While boil off rate is influenced by many things like ambient air temp and humidity, I typically averaged 15% on the 60m boil so half that is still better than what I see thrown around on the pro forums (5%). 

Approaching high krausen now and everything seems in order. 
How is the low DO thing shortening your brew session? It doesn't add much to my brew session, about 15-20 minutes, but I don't see how it shortens your session.

I should have been clearer.  I consider the shortened boil part of the LODO concept.  I did not do anything else LODO (pre boil/smb/etc).  I was always thinking about a shorter boil and when I read the LODO paper I just ran with it. 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline beersk

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2016, 06:44:04 am »
I didn't really overthink it and did like I always did which is a hard simmer based on info out there.  Honestly, I am using the LODO thing here as a cop out to shorten brew day.  If there is any benefit, great, but that is not my intention.  If this beer is off for some reason I do plan to kick the boil up higher than typical and see if it fixes things before I give up on the short boil.  While boil off rate is influenced by many things like ambient air temp and humidity, I typically averaged 15% on the 60m boil so half that is still better than what I see thrown around on the pro forums (5%). 

Approaching high krausen now and everything seems in order. 
How is the low DO thing shortening your brew session? It doesn't add much to my brew session, about 15-20 minutes, but I don't see how it shortens your session.

I should have been clearer.  I consider the shortened boil part of the LODO concept.  I did not do anything else LODO (pre boil/smb/etc).  I was always thinking about a shorter boil and when I read the LODO paper I just ran with it. 
Ah, gotcha. I'm still mashing for 60 minutes, but shortening my boil to 45 minutes. It actually ends up being slightly longer due to hot break in the beginning and I tend to stop the timer when I add my chiller. Takes up to 5 minutes to get going again sometimes. So the boil length is probably more like 55-60 minutes altogether. I don't have any definitive answers as to whether my efforts for Low DO are making any difference just yet. The sulfur bomb I had is now fine; no more sulfur, but aside from seeming slightly fuller and maaaaaaaaybe slightly more malty than typical for a beer that finished at 1.007, it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference. But it's much too early to tell on it also.
I also have an all Vienna pale ale kegged that seems really nice, really fresh tasting, but I don't know if that's just because of the Vienna (since I've never brewed an all Vienna pale before) or from the low DO process...or both. Who knows!!! Not going to lose sleep over it.
Jesse

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2016, 06:40:26 am »
OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer.  Definitely something a person would want in a helles and maybe not so much in a saison.  It is still nice and dry/crisp but has dare I say something along the lines of "IT".  Further experimentation required and maybe this is an isolated thing, but at this point I really gotta suggest anyone chasing after IT at least has to try a shorter boil or a deliberately lower intensity boil to see if they get similar results or to see if if I am off my rocker.  I have an IPA on deck and then a NGP and plan to employ same technique and will update thread... 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2016, 06:54:33 am »
OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer.  Definitely something a person would want in a helles and maybe not so much in a saison.  It is still nice and dry/crisp but has dare I say something along the lines of "IT".  Further experimentation required and maybe this is an isolated thing, but at this point I really gotta suggest anyone chasing after IT at least has to try a shorter boil or a deliberately lower intensity boil to see if they get similar results or to see if if I am off my rocker.  I have an IPA on deck and then a NGP and plan to employ same technique and will update thread... 


Did the saison attenuate as expected? Interesting info.
Jon H.

Offline zwiller

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2016, 08:19:29 am »
Lost the hydro sample at kegging but will degas/etc and check it out and post.  I have absolutely the worst time with hydro samples... 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline neddles

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Re: 30m boil help
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2016, 10:29:37 am »
My N=3 with 30 min boils tells me that it will be my standard and that boiling longer will be an exception. The beers have come out stellar so far.