[zwiller]

My N=3 with 30 min boils tells me that it will be my standard and that boiling longer will be an exception. The beers have come out stellar so far.

Thanks for posting.  Did you notice any differences at all?

[neddles]

Nothing unexpected. These were not repeat recipes an they were also the first 3 batches in which I used Brewtan B. So pretty hard to say anything too definitive about them other than that they came out excellent. 2 of them were pils malt based and there is not a hint of DMS that I can pick up in any of them. Less time, less propane, less RO water to buy. So far it's a win all around for me.

[zwiller]

OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer.  Definitely something a person would want in a helles and maybe not so much in a saison.  It is still nice and dry/crisp but has dare I say something along the lines of "IT".  Further experimentation required and maybe this is an isolated thing, but at this point I really gotta suggest anyone chasing after IT at least has to try a shorter boil or a deliberately lower intensity boil to see if they get similar results or to see if if I am off my rocker.  I have an IPA on deck and then a NGP and plan to employ same technique and will update thread... 

Did the saison attenuate as expected? Interesting info.

1.005-6.  I did use 10% sugar but seems normal to me and a wee bit little lower than typical (the additional time on the yeast maybe). 

[zwiller]

Nothing unexpected. These were not repeat recipes an they were also the first 3 batches in which I used Brewtan B. So pretty hard to say anything too definitive about them other than that they came out excellent. 2 of them were pils malt based and there is not a hint of DMS that I can pick up in any of them. Less time, less propane, less RO water to buy. So far it's a win all around for me.

Great info on the DMS!  There are some guys still going 90m for that...  I am with ya on the benefits.  I thought of this the other day: Since you use less water there is even less propane used to heat mash/sparge/boil since you hit temps faster... 

Are you mashing shorter as well?  I've been doing 30m a few years now. 

[neddles]

Nothing unexpected. These were not repeat recipes an they were also the first 3 batches in which I used Brewtan B. So pretty hard to say anything too definitive about them other than that they came out excellent. 2 of them were pils malt based and there is not a hint of DMS that I can pick up in any of them. Less time, less propane, less RO water to buy. So far it's a win all around for me.

Are you mashing shorter as well?  I've been doing 30m a few years now.

No I haven't gone down that road yet. I feel like that one really needs to be done serially...same recipe/same grist in order to know what changes in conversion efficiency or fermentability I experience, if any.

[brewinhard]

OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer. 

How can a shorter boil result in a "maltier" beer?  Did I miss something on an earlier post?

[denny]

OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer. 

How can a shorter boil result in a "maltier" beer?  Did I miss something on an earlier post?

Only thing I can think of is not adjusting the hopping for the lower utilization of a 30 min. boil.

[brewinhard]

OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer. 

How can a shorter boil result in a "maltier" beer?  Did I miss something on an earlier post?

Only thing I can think of is not adjusting the hopping for the lower utilization of a 30 min. boil.

Maybe. But I believe further back in the thread there was a suggestion to be sure to do so.

[denny]

OK, so I kegged this 30m saison...  Everything seems fine however, I will say with my BJCP cred I do think the shorter boil created a maltier beer. 

How can a shorter boil result in a "maltier" beer?  Did I miss something on an earlier post?

Only thing I can think of is not adjusting the hopping for the lower utilization of a 30 min. boil.

Maybe. But I believe further back in the thread there was a suggestion to be sure to do so.

Yep.  Confused....

[HoosierBrew]

Only thing I can think of is not adjusting the hopping for the lower utilization of a 30 min. boil.

That's the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise I'm at a loss.

[zwiller]

The goal of the 30m boil was simply to save time.  I was hoping the resulting beer would basically be the same as a 60m boil.  IBUs were adjusted etc.  IIRC there is a mention in the LODO article that a shorter or less intense boil could contribute to less oxidation/more "it".  I wonder if there could be some merit to this now.  The maltiness is more in the aroma but it is still in the flavor too.  Very munich malt-ish.  The recipe and yeast was basically the same as I've done for the last few years except a 30m boil.  70/20/10 2 row/wheat malt/sugar.  That said, could be just a one off thing.  Honestly, I don't want in my saison. 

[denny]

The goal of the 30m boil was simply to save time.  I was hoping the resulting beer would basically be the same as a 60m boil.  IBUs were adjusted etc.  IIRC there is a mention in the LODO article that a shorter or less intense boil could contribute to less oxidation/more "it".  I wonder if there could be some merit to this now.  The maltiness is more in the aroma but it is still in the flavor too.  Very munich malt-ish.  The recipe and yeast was basically the same as I've done for the last few years except a 30m boil.  70/20/10 2 row/wheat malt/sugar.  That said, could be just a one off thing.  Honestly, I don't want in my saison.

Waiddaminnit.....boiling drives off O2 doesn't it?  How could boiling increase oxidation?

[beersk]

The goal of the 30m boil was simply to save time.  I was hoping the resulting beer would basically be the same as a 60m boil.  IBUs were adjusted etc.  IIRC there is a mention in the LODO article that a shorter or less intense boil could contribute to less oxidation/more "it".  I wonder if there could be some merit to this now.  The maltiness is more in the aroma but it is still in the flavor too.  Very munich malt-ish.  The recipe and yeast was basically the same as I've done for the last few years except a 30m boil.  70/20/10 2 row/wheat malt/sugar.  That said, could be just a one off thing.  Honestly, I don't want in my saison.

Waiddaminnit.....boiling drives off O2 doesn't it?  How could boiling increase oxidation?

I think what he meant to say was heat stress rather than oxidation.

[denny]

I think what he meant to say was heat stress rather than oxidation.

Heat stress?  Tell me more!

[zwiller]

My bad.  Heat stress accelerates oxidation.  Honestly, I didn’t really study the paper and all I saw when I read it was “german brewers only brew 30 minutes” and ran with it really fast.    Never heard of heat stress until that article so...  That said, I did research the evaporation rate quoted extensively and the 4% quote is pretty dang close to what the stateside pro brewers get too (5%).  This was a shock to me since I routinely go beyond 15%.