Author Topic: reducing ppm hardness  (Read 951 times)

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
reducing ppm hardness
« on: August 02, 2016, 01:54:59 PM »
In Mitch Steele's book on IPA's, the following is mentioned in the Stone IPA recipe:

"Municipal water (300 ppm hardness) is carbon filtered and goes through a reverse osmosis process. Treat to reduce hardness to 100 ppm". How would that work? Boil the water? Add acid?  But how does this go together with reverse osmosis?
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8843
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2016, 02:10:18 PM »
In Mitch Steele's book on IPA's, the following is mentioned in the Stone IPA recipe:

"Municipal water (300 ppm hardness) is carbon filtered and goes through a reverse osmosis process. Treat to reduce hardness to 100 ppm". How would that work? Boil the water? Add acid?  But how does this go together with reverse osmosis?
From the tour at Stone, they have a big RO system to remove the high mineral content in the water. Then they blend the tap water with RO water to get the hardness they want. Simple as that.


Edit - there were also bags of CaCl2 and Gypsum stacked high. If those were added to the mash water or the boil kettle, I don't know. Sierra Nevada does add kettle salts, I have seen that in person.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 02:39:05 PM by hopfenundmalz »
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline zwiller

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2016, 02:37:46 PM »
There is also something called "nano filtration" which is selective type of filter.  That said, I wouldn't worry too much about Stone's process, what matters is YOUR water.  If you have 300ppm hardness then you will likely need to do something similar to Stone and dilute.  However if your water is 150ppm or less then no need to dilute and you can treat with just acid.   
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3224
  • Two Rivers, WI
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2016, 02:58:48 PM »
They might use multiple techniques.  RO will certainly remove the bulk of the hardness.  Heatup after would rock up even more of it if desired.  Chemical additions might also be used (possibly phosphoric??).

I agree with Sandusky Sam on the bottom line -- the particulars are not as important as the end result.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 02:59:24 PM »
So Ca + Mg would be 100 ppm. That's a bit lower than Martin's pale ale profile with Ca+Mg = 160. Right? I'll reduce the other minerals the same way.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2016, 03:49:37 PM »
In Mitch Steele's book on IPA's, the following is mentioned in the Stone IPA recipe:

"Municipal water (300 ppm hardness) is carbon filtered and goes through a reverse osmosis process. Treat to reduce hardness to 100 ppm". How would that work? Boil the water? Add acid?  But how does this go together with reverse osmosis?

Still, from http://srcity.org/departments/utilities/h2o/h2oquality/Pages/default.aspx
"Santa Rosa Water is considered to be moderately hard at an average level detected of 93.6 ppm or 5.5 grains per gallon."

So that's quite a discrepancy. But ok, doesn't really matter to me then.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline zwiller

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2016, 04:17:01 PM »
(where the heck is Martin when you need him  ;D)  I think you are confusing some things (hardness vs ca/mg although they are related)  How's about a screen shot of BNW water profile screen?  I think your water's probably fine... 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline HoosierBrew

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 13030
  • Indianapolis,IN
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 04:24:39 PM »
(where the heck is Martin when you need him  ;D)  I think you are confusing some things (hardness vs ca/mg although they are related)  How's about a screen shot of BNW water profile screen?  I think your water's probably fine... 


Yeah, I'm confused by the 'Ca + Mg" thing. Regardless of water profile, Mg content IIRC is sub 17ppm in Brunwater. Pretty nominal.
Jon H.

Offline lupulus

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Think like a proton, stay positive!
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 04:32:40 PM »
You can reduce to about 60-80 ppm using lime treatment.
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”  Neil deGrasse Tyson

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8843
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 04:36:14 PM »
In Mitch Steele's book on IPA's, the following is mentioned in the Stone IPA recipe:

"Municipal water (300 ppm hardness) is carbon filtered and goes through a reverse osmosis process. Treat to reduce hardness to 100 ppm". How would that work? Boil the water? Add acid?  But how does this go together with reverse osmosis?

Still, from http://srcity.org/departments/utilities/h2o/h2oquality/Pages/default.aspx
"Santa Rosa Water is considered to be moderately hard at an average level detected of 93.6 ppm or 5.5 grains per gallon."

So that's quite a discrepancy. But ok, doesn't really matter to me then.
The descrepancy is that Stone is in Escondido CA, 550 miles from Santa Rosa CA!  :)

High TDS and the average hardness is 255, high 300, as ppm CaCO3.
http://www.escondido.org/Data/Sites/1/media/pdfs/ccr2015eng.pdf

California has a very mixed geology, parts will have soft water from granite aquifers, other parts have sedimentary layers and hard water. Southern CA also uses water from the Colorado River, which is full of minerals. From a quick internet search.
http://www.raynewater.com/sandiego/san-diego-water.php

Hardness depends on the Ca and Mg content. You can look it up in Brunwater or the web.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 04:39:25 PM »
Ouch, confused with Russian River location :(
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8843
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 04:41:36 PM »
Ouch, confused with Russian River location :(
Frank, no problem, as you are a long way from CA.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline homoeccentricus

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2008
  • A twerp from Antwerp
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 04:52:48 PM »
It IS a problem. I've been to Santa Rosa. I need to call my therapist.
Frank P.

Staggering on the shoulders of giant dwarfs.

Offline narvin

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2255
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 05:26:36 PM »
It IS a problem. I've been to Santa Rosa. I need to call my therapist.

I think you mean bartender.

I took the original quote as meaning RO is what reduces hardness.  I haven't had the behind the scenes tour but I wouldn't be surprised if they also used some acid.
Please do not reply if your[sic] an evil alien!
Thanks

Offline narvin

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2255
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: reducing ppm hardness
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 05:31:15 PM »
Also hardness (expressed as ppm CaCO3) is not exactly the same as ppm of the ions.

Hardness =  (Ca ppm) * 2.5 + (Mg ppm) *4
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 05:38:27 PM by narvin »
Please do not reply if your[sic] an evil alien!
Thanks