[hopfenundmalz]

Yup, with a lager you can transfer with 1p or so of extract left into a fresh keg, seal it up, and hook on the pressure relieve valve. It has a few benefits - it saves time and money by eliminating the need to force carb with C02, the transfer seems to rouse it up and results in higher attenuation, and the big one is your serving keg will have less oxygen.

I've done the whole fill the serving keg with sanitizer, push it out, purge and purge again, then close transfer thing as well but my DO meter showed it's not as good. Actually took some readings last night. A bottle conditioned beer had the lowest oxygen, my spunded lager had a bit more (imagine more headspace and the transfer, working on my processes), and the c02 purged/racked into serving keg after FG was reached beer had significantly more 02. Purging with C02 seems to be materially not as effective as active yeast. I just got the meter so I'm looking forward to taking more readings.

We've all noticed that drop off in dry hop aroma - in theory this should be significantly reduced with less oxygen in the serving keg. I guess it's why canned and oxygen obsessed Heady Topper and bottle conditioned Sierra Nevada last so much longer than filtered and bottled beer.


http://www.homebrewing.org/Adjustable-Pressure-Relief-Valve-w-Gauge_p_1813.html&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping?gclid=CPj4g4DRqs4CFclZhgodsBoOLw

what is spunding?

I fill my kegs to the brim with sanitizer and push that out with CO2 before jumping or racking the beer in.  seems to limit O2, but I get what you are saying.

Spunding is moving the beer to the keg with some amount of fermentation left to go.  Then you connect a spunding valvle (I just bought one but have not used it yet) to allow the pressure to escape but the valve allows you to dial in the amount of carbonation you want to retain in the beer.  So it's a way to naturally carbonate and you can also assume that it's a great way to keep O2 out of the beer at the same time.  Personally I find the "dialing in of the carb" a little intimidating but if you ended up low on carb, I could see topping it off with CO2 from a tank to make up the difference.

I'm going to AiH this afternoon, will now pick one up.

[homoeccentricus]

Is spunding and dry hopping an IPA simultaneously 
possible and a good idea?

[Village Taphouse]

I'm going to AiH this afternoon, will now pick one up.

I think mine was $32 or something.  It connects to one port on your keg and has an adjustable gauge on it which may read in PSI or "BAR".  I seem to remember someone telling me to set the spunding valve to "8 bar". 

[denny]

Is spunding and dry hopping an IPA simultaneously 
possible and a good idea?

Maybe.  I like to get the beer off the yeast before dry hopping, so that wouldn't be possible.

I think people are on a snipe hunt looking for the "best way".  There are a number of ways that work well.  They each produce slightly different results.  You need to try different methods and see what you like.  You may even decide that you like different methods for different beers.

[HoosierBrew]

Maybe.  I like to get the beer off the yeast before dry hopping, so that wouldn't be possible.

I think people are on a snipe hunt looking for the "best way".  There are a number of ways that work well.  They each produce slightly different results.  You need to try different methods and see what you like.  You may even decide that you like different methods for different beers.

I had the same thought about dry hopping a spunded beer - I dry hop clear, yeast free beer, too.  And there's just no substitute for trying different methods for yourself.

[BrodyR]

Jeff - Sounds good, fun tool to have!

Village Taphouse - 0.8 Bar (~10psi)

HoosierBrew - Yea, this seems to be a debate among IPA brewers. As far as I understand it, the modern North East IPA brewers are hopping during the end of fermentation, but I could be mistaken. Pros are seen as less oxygen and more natural rousing. Sounds like a lot of people are doing both. Hop at end of ferment then hop again after. Nothing like 10oz of dry hops to kill a budget haha.

Denny - I'm definitely on a quest for the best way but I recognize that's not what the hobby is about for everyone. I have a buddy who's been brewing for some years and pays 0 attention to pH, mash acidification, fermentation temperature, or oxygen and that's fine! I think the level of detail and precision the GermanBrewing team is encouraging is awesome as well. It's all about enjoying the hobby and your beer. To some people that's keeping it as simple as possible and having fun. To other's the hobby becomes more engaging when you're constantly learning and improving.

Some things are subjective in brewing. Other's are quantifiable. You can measure pH, gravity, color, bitterness, dissolved oxygen, etc. We know that oxygen is bad for dry hops. All you have to do is let a growler of IPA sit a couple of days too long to prove that. If we can quantify that the standard homebrewing method of: Finish Fermentation in the carboy, cold crash & gel, then transfer into a serving keg is introducing a decent but of O2, even when you're careful, why not brainstorm solutions?

[denny]

Denny - I'm definitely on a quest for the best way but I recognize that's not what the hobby is about for everyone. I have a buddy who's been brewing for some years and pays 0 attention to pH, mash acidification, fermentation temperature, or oxygen and that's fine! I think the level of detail and precision the GermanBrewing team is encouraging is awesome as well. It's all about enjoying the hobby and your beer. To some people that's keeping it as simple as possible and having fun. To other's the hobby becomes more engaging when you're constantly learning and improving.

Some things are subjective in brewing. Other's are quantifiable. You can measure pH, gravity, color, bitterness, dissolved oxygen, etc. We know that oxygen is bad for dry hops. All you have to do is let a growler of IPA sit a couple of days too long to prove that. If we can quantify that the standard homebrewing method of: Finish Fermentation in the carboy, cold crash & gel, then transfer into a serving keg is introducing a decent but of O2, even when you're careful, why not brainstorm solutions?

Because my experience has taught me that there isn't a single solution in many cases, especially this one.

[brewinhard]

What a great few pages of reading. Maybe Santa will bring me a spunding valve this year?

[denny]

What a great few pages of reading. Maybe Santa will bring me a spunding valve this year?

There are instructions for making your own in Experimental Homebrewing.

[blatz]

Man I really don't feel like I have ever experienced the deleterious effects of O2 pickup on any of my jumped beers.  I'm sure that your methods are much better and reduce the O2 pickup, but i also try to drink my IPAs long before they would show oxidative signs.   I applaud your efforts, but until I start to consistently have oxidation issues, I'll leave that solution alone.

[HoosierBrew]

Man I really don't feel like I have ever experienced the deleterious effects of O2 pickup on any of my jumped beers.  I'm sure that your methods are much better and reduce the O2 pickup, but i also try to drink my IPAs long before they would show oxidative signs.   I applaud your efforts, but until I start to consistently have oxidation issues, I'll leave that solution alone.

I feel the same.

[Village Taphouse]

Without going on another loosely-related tangent, I have been looking at O2 pickup and I think that my brewdays are (were) filled with far more O2-pickup than most brewers.  I pour, I splash, I stir, I recirc... when I chill, I stir some more and when I transfer to primary I rack through a strainer and let it rain.  I do not have a DO meter but my guess is that I was allowing more O2 into my beers than I should have and even in the early stages of a beer, O2 can zap out malt depth and create an ungraceful finish in the beer.  As a result I tried brewtan and although some people claim "bias confirmation" (and I don't necessarily argue), my beers seem much softer, smoother, cleaner and they have more malt depth and hop definition than I was getting before.  I think Denny described it as a more "integrated" beer flavor and that's a good description.  On top of that I switched to an SS chiller (copper is oxidative, apparently), I adjusted my mash volume up and sparge volume down, I'm conditioning my malt and also skipping secondary and going from primary directly to CO2-purged keg.  I'm making the best beers of my 17-year brewing odyssey.

[BrodyR]

Denny - I'm with you there, I don't have a single solution. But, as a community, we can identify and measure the problem and brainstorm ways to improve.

Blatz - Yea, time is certainly a factor.

I'm not implying that if you let a little O2 in you're IPA is going to taste like wet cardboard and suck. But rather that taking efforts to eliminate as much cold-side O2 as possible seems to result in a more intense and longer lasting dry hop aroma.

There may be a slider too. If the camp that believes dry hopping off the yeast is better is correct, then maybe the yeast activity in a naturally carbonated IPA will be a detractor. A lot of variables I'm looking forward to exploring.

Denny - I'm definitely on a quest for the best way but I recognize that's not what the hobby is about for everyone. I have a buddy who's been brewing for some years and pays 0 attention to pH, mash acidification, fermentation temperature, or oxygen and that's fine! I think the level of detail and precision the GermanBrewing team is encouraging is awesome as well. It's all about enjoying the hobby and your beer. To some people that's keeping it as simple as possible and having fun. To other's the hobby becomes more engaging when you're constantly learning and improving.

Some things are subjective in brewing. Other's are quantifiable. You can measure pH, gravity, color, bitterness, dissolved oxygen, etc. We know that oxygen is bad for dry hops. All you have to do is let a growler of IPA sit a couple of days too long to prove that. If we can quantify that the standard homebrewing method of: Finish Fermentation in the carboy, cold crash & gel, then transfer into a serving keg is introducing a decent but of O2, even when you're careful, why not brainstorm solutions?

Because my experience has taught me that there isn't a single solution in many cases, especially this one.

[Village Taphouse]

Village Taphouse - 0.8 Bar (~10psi)

Right... I remember now.  ~10psi sounds like a reasonable pressure for carbing and my guess is that it would take 5-7 days to reach your goal.  Thanks for the conversion.

[BrodyR]

Without going on another loosely-related tangent, I have been looking at O2 pickup and I think that my brewdays are (were) filled with far more O2-pickup than most brewers.  I pour, I splash, I stir, I recirc... when I chill, I stir some more and when I transfer to primary I rack through a strainer and let it rain.  I do not have a DO meter but my guess is that I was allowing more O2 into my beers than I should have and even in the early stages of a beer, O2 can zap out malt depth and create an ungraceful finish in the beer.  As a result I tried brewtan and although some people claim "bias confirmation" (and I don't necessarily argue), my beers seem much softer, smoother, cleaner and they have more malt depth and hop definition than I was getting before.  I think Denny described it as a more "integrated" beer flavor and that's a good description.  On top of that I switched to an SS chiller (copper is oxidative, apparently), I adjusted my mash volume up and sparge volume down, I'm conditioning my malt and also skipping secondary and going from primary directly to CO2-purged keg.  I'm making the best beers of my 17-year brewing odyssey.

Yea, my lager's are night and day better since I incorporated the low-O2, cold fermentation, and spunding method's outlined by the GB team. My challenge now is incorporating my lager-centric process improvement's into my Pale Ale brewing (and all the challenges that ale fermentations and dry hopping add).