[zwiller]

Curious if many would agree "liquid is better than dry" is now a myth as well?  Same strains of course.

If true, it's only temporary.  More excellent dry yeasts are coming out all the time.  One example: Take a look at Belle Saison.  That's a super awesome yeast, which nobody should deny (but probably will just to be contrarian if nothing else).  I must confess I have not tried the weizen strains yet but intend to, maybe next year.  And I'll be sure to underpitch, like only 1/16 of a packet for a 1.7-gallon batch. 

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.  I would have to say my most favorite yeast of all time is Blaugies/wyeast limited edition 3726.  I am fairly certain this is Imperials Rustic and have one on deck awaiting final confirmation.  I seriously owe a huge thanks to a dude on the old green board who turned me onto it...  There's simply NO other saison yeast to me. 

The WB06 hefe was the game changer for me and made me a believer in dry yeast.  I think WB06 is WY3638.  Nice light fruity tart take on the style but not for banana/clove bombs.  I think it would also make a great wit.  I tend to be with Denny that underpitching won’t help much but that is based on me seriously abusing yeast and getting away with it over the years. 

One slight tangent.  I tend to see most LHBS carry most dry yeasts but only a small assortment of wet.  My LHBS is like 90% chico so I tend to look at the dry stuff as more unique offerings.  I think that's part of the allure...  That is in addition to cost/simplicity/cell count. 

[HoosierBrew]

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.  I would have to say my most favorite yeast of all time is Blaugies/wyeast limited edition 3726. 

Yeah, 3711 is said to be Belle. And I agree on all counts - I'm a 3724 lover, too, but I'd pick Blaugies over all the others. Gonna use Rustic soon.

[chumley]

If Belle is 3711, then underpitching it won't make it turn into 3724 or 3726.

If WB06 is 3638, then underpitching it won't make it turn into 3333 (my favorite weissbier strain).

I haven't found any dry English ale yeast that comes remotely close to giving the stone fruit esters of 1469.

And, I have disagreed with Denny for years on this.  As someone who has pitched on top of yeast cakes for years, I can emphatically say that English ale and German weissbier yeast character drops dramatically with later generations.  The Belgian yeast, not so much.

[zwiller]

If Belle is 3711, then underpitching it won't make it turn into 3724 or 3726.

If WB06 is 3638, then underpitching it won't make it turn into 3333 (my favorite weissbier strain).

I haven't found any dry English ale yeast that comes remotely close to giving the stone fruit esters of 1469.

+1;  I have not run the gamut of dry english ale strains but it sounds like you saved me the time.  I might have to admit defeat with SO4.  That said, never dialed the heat up like some do. 

[dmtaylor]

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.

Getting back to the OP....... I wonder if it's bland because one pack of dry yeast in 5 gallons is a major overpitch.

Sidebar: Denny, your previous comment/opinion that underpitching doesn't help is noted and appreciated.  But doesn't mean it's right, either.  More experiments are still needed, methinks.   

[denny]

If Belle is 3711, then underpitching it won't make it turn into 3724 or 3726.

If WB06 is 3638, then underpitching it won't make it turn into 3333 (my favorite weissbier strain).

I haven't found any dry English ale yeast that comes remotely close to giving the stone fruit esters of 1469.

And, I have disagreed with Denny for years on this.  As someone who has pitched on top of yeast cakes for years, I can emphatically say that English ale and German weissbier yeast character drops dramatically with later generations.  The Belgian yeast, not so much.

It was documented in the HBD maybe 15+ years ago that weissbier yeast loses it's character and is not a good candidate for repitching.

[zwiller]

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.

Getting back to the OP....... I wonder if it's bland because one pack of dry yeast in 5 gallons is a major overpitch.

Sidebar: Denny, your previous comment/opinion that underpitching doesn't help is noted and appreciated.  But doesn't mean it's right, either.  More experiments are still needed, methinks.   

I used wet 3711 and if I use the numbers based on the yeast calcs out there I'd be underpitching. 

Honestly, a great experiment and should be easy to conduct.  That said, ToddH is on point.  It's strain dependent.  Just because one yeast might express more stressed/underpitched does not mean another will.  That said, I am rooting for ya: I am a consummate cheap SOB and would love to kick up yeast expression at times.  You might be surprised just how little yeast you can use successfully.  One time I forgot to order yeast and pitched the dregs of a bottle of homebrew and it was just fine (chico for the record). 

[brewinhard]

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.

Getting back to the OP....... I wonder if it's bland because one pack of dry yeast in 5 gallons is a major overpitch.

Sidebar: Denny, your previous comment/opinion that underpitching doesn't help is noted and appreciated.  But doesn't mean it's right, either.  More experiments are still needed, methinks.   

  One time I forgot to order yeast and pitched the dregs of a bottle of homebrew and it was just fine (chico for the record).

That is awesome. You are one brave brewer. How big was the batch?

[Joe Sr.]

And, I have disagreed with Denny for years on this.  As someone who has pitched on top of yeast cakes for years, I can emphatically say that English ale and German weissbier yeast character drops dramatically with later generations.  The Belgian yeast, not so much.

Are you pitching right on top of the full cake?

It was documented in the HBD maybe 15+ years ago that weissbier yeast loses it's character and is not a good candidate for repitching.

What's the thought/science behind this?  If you grow up a starter does that help?  It seems like that just adds to the number of generations and would be detrimental.

[denny]

It was documented in the HBD maybe 15+ years ago that weissbier yeast loses it's character and is not a good candidate for repitching.

What's the thought/science behind this?  If you grow up a starter does that help?  It seems like that just adds to the number of generations and would be detrimental.

I used to know, but I'm old and it's been a long time.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

[zwiller]

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.

Getting back to the OP....... I wonder if it's bland because one pack of dry yeast in 5 gallons is a major overpitch.

Sidebar: Denny, your previous comment/opinion that underpitching doesn't help is noted and appreciated.  But doesn't mean it's right, either.  More experiments are still needed, methinks.   

  One time I forgot to order yeast and pitched the dregs of a bottle of homebrew and it was just fine (chico for the record).

That is awesome. You are one brave brewer. How big was the batch?

Average strength, 5 gallons.  This was along time ago in the dark ages (before yeast calculators or the web  ).  Originally, I thought it was a fail since it took like a week to start.  I remember it distinctly because it was first beer I fermented in a basement.  I was worried it would be too cold since in those days we were told to "keep it in a warm place".  Little did I know at the time that a cooler fermentation made better beer.  I was ecstatic. 

[brewinhard]

Belle is 3711 right?  Good yeast, fast and dry but too bland for me.

Getting back to the OP....... I wonder if it's bland because one pack of dry yeast in 5 gallons is a major overpitch.

Sidebar: Denny, your previous comment/opinion that underpitching doesn't help is noted and appreciated.  But doesn't mean it's right, either.  More experiments are still needed, methinks.   

  One time I forgot to order yeast and pitched the dregs of a bottle of homebrew and it was just fine (chico for the record).

That is awesome. You are one brave brewer. How big was the batch?

Average strength, 5 gallons.  This was along time ago in the dark ages (before yeast calculators or the web  ).  Originally, I thought it was a fail since it took like a week to start.  I remember it distinctly because it was first beer I fermented in a basement.  I was worried it would be too cold since in those days we were told to "keep it in a warm place".  Little did I know at the time that a cooler fermentation made better beer.  I was ecstatic.

Ha!  Amazing what yeast can do.

[brewinhard]

Hell, at least better than what was available commercially at that time.

[dmtaylor]

Validation!  I heard Jamil say on the following podcast at about the 59-minute mark that the standard 11-gram dry yeast packets contain about 225% as much yeast as a standard vial of liquid yeast.  Whammo!  I mean, he would know, right?  He wrote the book on Yeast?!

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/bws_2016_07_05_diacetyldryyeastQs.mp3

[Pricelessbrewing]

Math works out for a typical WL vial.

Minimum viable 180B per satchet, average WL vial for most strains* is about 80-90B. 180/80=2.25.

*Flocculation seems to be the biggest variable for this. Low flocc strains have an average of ~65-75B, and can be as low as 30B according to the QC reports I pulled from yeastman last winter.