[el_capitan]

Yeah, I really thought 2 packs was extreme overkill, but I've never used Belle Saison before.  Glad to hear that people have had good results with it.

[dmtaylor]

I picked up a couple AG saison kits from NB, and I read that they recommend pitching TWO packs of dry yeast in the 5 gallon batch.  I kind of thought that was overkill.  I'm going to brew tomorrow - do you think I can get away with just the single pack?

That's just silly.  In future I shall use a half a pack.

[redzim]

That's what I used to do but I would be interested how 1 packet rehydrated would do (and bet it does fine).  That said, I did one single packet @ 60F in a NGP and don't think I will ever go back to cooler ferments.  I am BJCP and brutal about my own stuff.

Tell me more about this: you ferment your Pils @60F, with 1 packet of W-34/70 per 5-6gal?  I loved 34/70 but I've been a solid 2packs per 5gal guy for years, and always try to keep it around 50-51F for the first 5-6 days, then ramp it up toward mid-60s over the next 5-6 days... 

But you're saying with less yeast and a warmer ferment, you're still happy with it?

[zwiller]

That's what I used to do but I would be interested how 1 packet rehydrated would do (and bet it does fine).  That said, I did one single packet @ 60F in a NGP and don't think I will ever go back to cooler ferments.  I am BJCP and brutal about my own stuff.

Tell me more about this: you ferment your Pils @60F, with 1 packet of W-34/70 per 5-6gal?  I loved 34/70 but I've been a solid 2packs per 5gal guy for years, and always try to keep it around 50-51F for the first 5-6 days, then ramp it up toward mid-60s over the next 5-6 days... 

But you're saying with less yeast and a warmer ferment, you're still happy with it?

Heck yeah.  I was the same as you but gave it a shot once and am converted.  In fact, planning to brew a NGP today with same technique. 

[Philbrew]

Math works out for a typical WL vial.

Minimum viable 180B per satchet, average WL vial for most strains* is about 80-90B. 180/80=2.25.

*Flocculation seems to be the biggest variable for this. Low flocc strains have an average of ~65-75B, and can be as low as 30B according to the QC reports I pulled from yeastman last winter.

Looked up the data sheet for Lallemand Belle Saison.  Says 5 x 10*9th cells per gram.  So an 11 gram satchet would have 55B cells.  Considerably less than a WL vial.  Unless I'm doing the math wrong (good posiblity).

[zwiller]

I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find! 

[dmtaylor]

I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 

[Philbrew]

I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 

Dave,  I agree that under pitching is good for some styles.  I think that I've underpitched Belle Saison twice and tasted some interesting flavors (pear, pepper, anise) in the beer.  But my idea of underpitching is a rehydrated 11 gram satchet in 5.5 gallons of wort.
Here's my math (yours may vary).
If you want the beer at high kraeusen to have 200B cells/liter* in 21L, that's 4200B cells.  If you want to get there in 4 doublings (should be enough lipids for 4 replications without O2), you need to start with 262.5B cells.  At 55B cells/satchet** you would need to pitch 4.77 satchets. 

* Don't know if that's realistic.
**Lallemand says >5 x 10*9th cells/gram, so could be more.

[Philbrew]

I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

I checked the other dry yeast makers and found that they are all in the same ballpark.  Fermentis is high at > 69B cells/packet and Mangrove Jack's is lowest at >50B cells/packet.

[dmtaylor]

I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 

Dave,  I agree that under pitching is good for some styles.  I think that I've underpitched Belle Saison twice and tasted some interesting flavors (pear, pepper, anise) in the beer.  But my idea of underpitching is a rehydrated 11 gram satchet in 5.5 gallons of wort.
Here's my math (yours may vary).
If you want the beer at high kraeusen to have 200B cells/liter* in 21L, that's 4200B cells.  If you want to get there in 4 doublings (should be enough lipids for 4 replications without O2), you need to start with 262.5B cells.  At 55B cells/satchet** you would need to pitch 4.77 satchets. 

* Don't know if that's realistic.
**Lallemand says >5 x 10*9th cells/gram, so could be more.

I think you've accidentally squared the math.  For a standard beer of about 1.055 OG, you want 7B cells/liter, so in 21L (5 gal), that's ~150B cells/5 gal, or let's say 200B like you had.  Not 4200B!!!!  So divide 200B by 16 and you get... 12.5B, which is only a quarter of a sachet for 5 gallons!!!!

This is the first time I ever dicked around with cell counts.  Educational.  Thanks.

[Philbrew]

I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 

Dave,  I agree that under pitching is good for some styles.  I think that I've underpitched Belle Saison twice and tasted some interesting flavors (pear, pepper, anise) in the beer.  But my idea of underpitching is a rehydrated 11 gram satchet in 5.5 gallons of wort.
Here's my math (yours may vary).
If you want the beer at high kraeusen to have 200B cells/liter* in 21L, that's 4200B cells.  If you want to get there in 4 doublings (should be enough lipids for 4 replications without O2), you need to start with 262.5B cells.  At 55B cells/satchet** you would need to pitch 4.77 satchets. 

* Don't know if that's realistic.
**Lallemand says >5 x 10*9th cells/gram, so could be more.

I think you've accidentally squared the math.  For a standard beer of about 1.055 OG, you want 7B cells/liter, so in 21L (5 gal), that's ~150B cells/5 gal, or let's say 200B like you had.  Not 4200B!!!!  So divide 200B by 16 and you get... 12.5B, which is only a quarter of a sachet for 5 gallons!!!!

This is the first time I ever dicked around with cell counts.  Educational.  Thanks.

Ahah!  I thought that 200B cells/liter couldn't be realistic.  7B-10B cells/liter final growth would make 2-3 grams a "standard" pitch.  Makes more sense now.

Wow!  You're going to have to get out the jeweler's scale to underpitch a 1.7 gal. batch.

[dmtaylor]

Wow!  You're going to have to get out the jeweler's scale to underpitch a 1.7 gal. batch.

You ain't kidding!  I may never have a need to buy yeast or make a starter ever again! 

[zwiller]

So divide 200B by 16

Lost on this.  Is this the "4 doublings"?  Also, the aforementioned pitch rate 7B/L, where does it come from?  I am just interested.  I really think homebrewers in general are way overthinking yeast. 

[dmtaylor]

So divide 200B by 16

Lost on this.  Is this the "4 doublings"?  Also, the aforementioned pitch rate 7B/L, where does it come from?  I am just interested.  I really think homebrewers in general are way overthinking yeast.

I TOTALLY agree that many homebrewers tend to overthink pretty much everything, myself included when it comes to certain stuff.  Yeast was never something I thought a whole lot about but am starting to now.

Yes, exactly.  2 to the 4th power is 16.

I got the 7B/L thing from the following link, but I'm sure they got it from someplace else.  Interwebs are probably chock full of crazy talk about billions of yeast cells and yadda-yadda and honestly I'm not even all that terribly interested in any details except for the bottom line.  And the bottom line is, I only need to use 1/4 packet of dry yeast for 5 gallons from now on, or its equivalent for my 1/3 size batches (1.7 gallons) so I guess that's 1/12 packet!  I've always used 1/4 to 1/2 packet so I guess I was really overpitching.  Anyway, here's that link:

www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/YeastPitchingRates.pdf

[Philbrew]

So divide 200B by 16

Lost on this.  Is this the "4 doublings"?  Also, the aforementioned pitch rate 7B/L, where does it come from?  I am just interested.  I really think homebrewers in general are way overthinking yeast.

Yes.