Author Topic: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!  (Read 6812 times)

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2016, 12:03:24 AM »
It's definitely worth some experimentation. Who knows, maybe Belle Saison (for example) gets more interesting on half a pack ?

I picked up a couple AG saison kits from NB, and I read that they recommend pitching TWO packs of dry yeast in the 5 gallon batch.  I kind of thought that was overkill.  I'm going to brew tomorrow - do you think I can get away with just the single pack?


Absolutely. One pack is plenty of yeast. The only time I use two packs of dry is on a lager or a 1.090+ ale. Having said that, I don't use dry yeast a lot . No worries.
Jon H.

Offline el_capitan

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2016, 12:11:49 AM »
Yeah, I really thought 2 packs was extreme overkill, but I've never used Belle Saison before.  Glad to hear that people have had good results with it.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2016, 12:59:27 AM »
I picked up a couple AG saison kits from NB, and I read that they recommend pitching TWO packs of dry yeast in the 5 gallon batch.  I kind of thought that was overkill.  I'm going to brew tomorrow - do you think I can get away with just the single pack?

That's just silly.  In future I shall use a half a pack.
Dave

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Offline redzim

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2016, 06:17:55 PM »

That's what I used to do but I would be interested how 1 packet rehydrated would do (and bet it does fine).  That said, I did one single packet @ 60F in a NGP and don't think I will ever go back to cooler ferments.  I am BJCP and brutal about my own stuff.

Tell me more about this: you ferment your Pils @60F, with 1 packet of W-34/70 per 5-6gal?  I loved 34/70 but I've been a solid 2packs per 5gal guy for years, and always try to keep it around 50-51F for the first 5-6 days, then ramp it up toward mid-60s over the next 5-6 days... 

But you're saying with less yeast and a warmer ferment, you're still happy with it?

Offline zwiller

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2016, 12:57:55 PM »

That's what I used to do but I would be interested how 1 packet rehydrated would do (and bet it does fine).  That said, I did one single packet @ 60F in a NGP and don't think I will ever go back to cooler ferments.  I am BJCP and brutal about my own stuff.

Tell me more about this: you ferment your Pils @60F, with 1 packet of W-34/70 per 5-6gal?  I loved 34/70 but I've been a solid 2packs per 5gal guy for years, and always try to keep it around 50-51F for the first 5-6 days, then ramp it up toward mid-60s over the next 5-6 days... 

But you're saying with less yeast and a warmer ferment, you're still happy with it?

Heck yeah.  I was the same as you but gave it a shot once and am converted.  In fact, planning to brew a NGP today with same technique. 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2016, 06:09:24 PM »
Math works out for a typical WL vial.

Minimum viable 180B per satchet, average WL vial for most strains* is about 80-90B. 180/80=2.25.

*Flocculation seems to be the biggest variable for this. Low flocc strains have an average of ~65-75B, and can be as low as 30B according to the QC reports I pulled from yeastman last winter.
Looked up the data sheet for Lallemand Belle Saison.  Says 5 x 10*9th cells per gram.  So an 11 gram satchet would have 55B cells.  Considerably less than a WL vial.  Unless I'm doing the math wrong (good posiblity).
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Offline zwiller

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2016, 06:21:14 PM »
I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find! 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2016, 06:54:32 PM »
I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 :D 8)
Dave

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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2016, 08:49:56 PM »
I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 :D 8)
Dave,  I agree that under pitching is good for some styles.  I think that I've underpitched Belle Saison twice and tasted some interesting flavors (pear, pepper, anise) in the beer.  But my idea of underpitching is a rehydrated 11 gram satchet in 5.5 gallons of wort.
Here's my math (yours may vary). :)
If you want the beer at high kraeusen to have 200B cells/liter* in 21L, that's 4200B cells.  If you want to get there in 4 doublings (should be enough lipids for 4 replications without O2), you need to start with 262.5B cells.  At 55B cells/satchet** you would need to pitch 4.77 satchets. 

* Don't know if that's realistic.
**Lallemand says >5 x 10*9th cells/gram, so could be more.
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2016, 11:32:03 PM »
I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!
I checked the other dry yeast makers and found that they are all in the same ballpark.  Fermentis is high at > 69B cells/packet and Mangrove Jack's is lowest at >50B cells/packet.
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2016, 02:02:41 AM »
I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 :D 8)
Dave,  I agree that under pitching is good for some styles.  I think that I've underpitched Belle Saison twice and tasted some interesting flavors (pear, pepper, anise) in the beer.  But my idea of underpitching is a rehydrated 11 gram satchet in 5.5 gallons of wort.
Here's my math (yours may vary). :)
If you want the beer at high kraeusen to have 200B cells/liter* in 21L, that's 4200B cells.  If you want to get there in 4 doublings (should be enough lipids for 4 replications without O2), you need to start with 262.5B cells.  At 55B cells/satchet** you would need to pitch 4.77 satchets. 

* Don't know if that's realistic.
**Lallemand says >5 x 10*9th cells/gram, so could be more.

I think you've accidentally squared the math.  For a standard beer of about 1.055 OG, you want 7B cells/liter, so in 21L (5 gal), that's ~150B cells/5 gal, or let's say 200B like you had.  Not 4200B!!!!  So divide 200B by 16 and you get... 12.5B, which is only a quarter of a sachet for 5 gallons!!!!

This is the first time I ever dicked around with cell counts.  Educational.  Thanks.
Dave

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Offline Philbrew

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2016, 03:52:00 AM »
I think your math is right and hope theirs is wrong.  A quick look and their windsor is low too...  Interesting find!

Yeah but... I still maintain my bet that a little stress by underpitching with any Belgian or weizenbier yeast helps these yeasts to express more of the lovely esters and phenols... and secondly, Windsor is a BEAST that will hit final attenuation within 36 hours if you pitch "the standard" quantity, so perhaps underpitching wouldn't be such a bad thing for that one as well, maybe then it takes 48 or even 72 hours to hit FG -- oh no!

 :D 8)
Dave,  I agree that under pitching is good for some styles.  I think that I've underpitched Belle Saison twice and tasted some interesting flavors (pear, pepper, anise) in the beer.  But my idea of underpitching is a rehydrated 11 gram satchet in 5.5 gallons of wort.
Here's my math (yours may vary). :)
If you want the beer at high kraeusen to have 200B cells/liter* in 21L, that's 4200B cells.  If you want to get there in 4 doublings (should be enough lipids for 4 replications without O2), you need to start with 262.5B cells.  At 55B cells/satchet** you would need to pitch 4.77 satchets. 

* Don't know if that's realistic.
**Lallemand says >5 x 10*9th cells/gram, so could be more.

I think you've accidentally squared the math.  For a standard beer of about 1.055 OG, you want 7B cells/liter, so in 21L (5 gal), that's ~150B cells/5 gal, or let's say 200B like you had.  Not 4200B!!!!  So divide 200B by 16 and you get... 12.5B, which is only a quarter of a sachet for 5 gallons!!!!

This is the first time I ever dicked around with cell counts.  Educational.  Thanks.
Ahah!  I thought that 200B cells/liter couldn't be realistic.  7B-10B cells/liter final growth would make 2-3 grams a "standard" pitch.  Makes more sense now.

Wow!  You're going to have to get out the jeweler's scale to underpitch a 1.7 gal. batch. :)
Many of us would be on a strict liquid diet if it weren't for pretzels.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2016, 11:47:43 AM »
Wow!  You're going to have to get out the jeweler's scale to underpitch a 1.7 gal. batch. :)

You ain't kidding!  I may never have a need to buy yeast or make a starter ever again!  ;)
Dave

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Offline zwiller

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2016, 03:33:54 PM »
So divide 200B by 16

Lost on this.  Is this the "4 doublings"?  Also, the aforementioned pitch rate 7B/L, where does it come from?  I am just interested.  I really think homebrewers in general are way overthinking yeast. 
Sam
Sandusky, OH

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Are We All Overpitching All Dry Yeasts?!
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2016, 03:50:53 PM »
So divide 200B by 16

Lost on this.  Is this the "4 doublings"?  Also, the aforementioned pitch rate 7B/L, where does it come from?  I am just interested.  I really think homebrewers in general are way overthinking yeast.

I TOTALLY agree that many homebrewers tend to overthink pretty much everything, myself included when it comes to certain stuff.  Yeast was never something I thought a whole lot about but am starting to now.

Yes, exactly.  2 to the 4th power is 16.

I got the 7B/L thing from the following link, but I'm sure they got it from someplace else.  Interwebs are probably chock full of crazy talk about billions of yeast cells and yadda-yadda and honestly I'm not even all that terribly interested in any details except for the bottom line.  And the bottom line is, I only need to use 1/4 packet of dry yeast for 5 gallons from now on, or its equivalent for my 1/3 size batches (1.7 gallons) so I guess that's 1/12 packet!  I've always used 1/4 to 1/2 packet so I guess I was really overpitching.  Anyway, here's that link:

www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/YeastPitchingRates.pdf
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.