Author Topic: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?  (Read 1981 times)

Offline el_capitan

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Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« on: August 18, 2016, 04:43:52 PM »
I'm going to brew up an homage to Surly's "Todd the Axeman" tomorrow, and I'm doing the water calculations today.  I was thinking about using the Pale Ale profile in Bru'nWater.  Does anyone have experience using this profile?  I can get really close to the intended targets, but I've never amped up the calcium and sulfate levels that much before. 

I can't seem to upload a screenshot of my file, so I'll include the ion targets here:

Ca:  140
Mg:  18
Na:  25
SO4: 300
Cl:  55
Bicarb:  110

I purposely did not hit the intended Bicarb target because I wanted to keep my mash pH down around 5.3 for a crisp, light beer.  Other than that I'm darn close or right on to the intended targets.  I'm using RO water and adding salts.  Any input from those who have used this profile would be great.  Thanks!


Offline 69franx

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 04:46:23 PM »
A lot here liked it but then backed off a bit on the sulfate level. My last IPA made earlier this year still used the higher level. To some it comes off as minerally, but I liked it. I may back off on the next batch just to see the difference and if I like it more that way. Really just going to have to experiment to see what you like
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2016, 05:26:50 PM »
I have used the Pale Ale profile before and enjoyed it, although it did seem a tad minerally for me. My last IPA I backed off to around 150 ppm SO4 and it still seemed to allow the hops to pop.

I would give the Pale Ale profile a go and see what you think. You will not be disappointed you tried it.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2016, 05:28:26 PM »
I use it and like it. The one change I make is a subtract my boil off volume from the sparge calculation. I started doing this after making a crazy minerally 2 gallon batch.

Offline zwiller

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 05:49:44 PM »
I love it and have gone as high as 500ppm SO4 but 300ppm is the sweet spot to me.  Sulfate loading has been around a long time and is nothing new (see Terry Foster's Pale Ale)
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 06:25:36 PM »
I think you can safely ignore the bicarbonate number.   Hitting mash pH is much more important.  300 ppm sulfate is appropriate, not mandatory, in hoppy pale beers.

Offline denny

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 06:27:04 PM »
One other thing I'd suggest is using MgSO4 for at least part of your sulfate to keep the Ca from getting too high.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 06:27:58 PM »
When working with a highly mineralized profile, its important to recognize the total boil-off percentage. As mentioned above, this is particularly important as your batch size decreases which can produce a higher percentage loss and more ion concentration.

Another consideration is that the drying effect of sulfate does improve the perception of bittering. I'm guessing that adding an extra 150 ppm of sulfate can add somewhere around 5 IBU's of bittering perception. So for those of you thinking about trying higher sulfate on a beer recipe that you've fine tuned the bittering to perfection, you will likely need to back off the bittering a teeny bit to have a similar balance.
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 09:03:43 PM »
effect of sulfate does improve the perception of bittering. I'm guessing that adding an extra 150 ppm of sulfate can add somewhere around 5 IBU's of bittering perception. So for those of you thinking about trying higher sulfate on a beer recipe that you've fine tuned the bittering to perfection, you will likely need to back off the bittering a teeny bit to have a similar balance.

Interesting observation Martin. I will keep that in mind next go round with high sulfate addition brews.

Offline zwiller

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 09:18:00 PM »
When working with a highly mineralized profile, its important to recognize the total boil-off percentage. As mentioned above, this is particularly important as your batch size decreases which can produce a higher percentage loss and more ion concentration.

Another consideration is that the drying effect of sulfate does improve the perception of bittering. I'm guessing that adding an extra 150 ppm of sulfate can add somewhere around 5 IBU's of bittering perception. So for those of you thinking about trying higher sulfate on a beer recipe that you've fine tuned the bittering to perfection, you will likely need to back off the bittering a teeny bit to have a similar balance.

Yeah, I will try and remember to add that 5 IBUs to the other 200+ IBU in my IPA.   ;D  But the point is well taken. 
Sam
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 09:38:15 PM »
effect of sulfate does improve the perception of bittering. I'm guessing that adding an extra 150 ppm of sulfate can add somewhere around 5 IBU's of bittering perception. So for those of you thinking about trying higher sulfate on a beer recipe that you've fine tuned the bittering to perfection, you will likely need to back off the bittering a teeny bit to have a similar balance.

Interesting observation Martin. I will keep that in mind next go round with high sulfate addition brews.


+1. Makes sense. Thanks for posting, Martin.
Jon H.

Offline el_capitan

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 10:02:02 PM »
One other thing I'd suggest is using MgSO4 for at least part of your sulfate to keep the Ca from getting too high.

I don't have any MgSO4.  Right now I'm looking at a Ca level of 130 ppm. 

I used the search feature and see that this has already been well-covered (of course).  It looks like I need to monkey with my sparge additions based on boiloff.  I expect to lose about 1.3 gallons during the boil, so I guess I need to reconfigure the sparge additions to account for that loss. 

I also see lots of comments from people who are dialing back the sulfate to around 200.  I'm planning to bitter with Magnum, which is a fairly mellow bitterness, so maybe I should go for the full 300 ppm to amp it up a bit. 

Finally, Martin said in one post
I wouldn't go as high as 100 ppm for BOTH chloride and sulfate.  In an IPA, 100 ppm sulfate is a good starting point.  But adding 100 ppm chloride with that is inviting an antagonistic flavor impact.  I like to keep chloride in the 50 ppm range when I'm boosting sulfate above 100 ppm.
 

Again, I'm looking at 130 ppm Ca and 300 ppm SO4, which is slightly under the target of 140 ppm Ca in the Pale Ale profile.  So I'm getting some conflicting info here. 

I'm not stuck on using this particular profile, so if anybody wants to suggest something else I'm game.  I'm going to check out Tasty McDole's profile and see how that looks too.  Thanks for all the input so far.

Offline el_capitan

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 10:11:06 PM »
Also, is there a way to enter a custom profile into Bru'nWater?  I'd like to add McDole's profile for future reference. 

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 10:18:54 PM »
Tasty's profile is pretty similar to Martin's pale ale profile. I doubt you'd taste a difference.

Personally, I don't get especially worried about high Ca levels in most ales. But a good reason to use some epsom (MgSO4) in hoppy beers is that Mg is said to enhance bitterness. Regardless, I never go above the Brunwater Mg level of ~ 17ppm . On lagers though, I do use epsom to get Mg up to ~ 17ppm so that I can keep Ca content from exceeding 50ppm, as Martin has said that high Ca in lagers can be detrimental, even to yeast performance.  $0.02  .
Jon H.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Bru'nWater Pale Ale Profile?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2016, 10:33:13 PM »
There is an option to add a profile of you scroll way down on the adjustment tab.