Author Topic: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian  (Read 614 times)

Offline topher.bartos

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Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« on: August 19, 2016, 08:36:32 PM »
Hi,

I brewed a Saison according to the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles. I was told that if the Belgian Saison yeast stops fermentation, I'm free to add more yeast but he didn't specify if I needed to change the fermentation temperature for this yeast. I added California Ale yeast but kept the temperature Saison yeast high (80°). I think that was a dumb idea because I successfully turned a Saison into a Belgian. I used WLP565 and I used WLP001 for additional attenuation.

I've tasted plenty of Saisons to realize that it's way too Belgiany and yeasty to be a true Saison. But, it's a pretty good Belgiany tasting beer.

I guess my question is it possible to add a "clean" yeast to DuPont style Saison yeast at high temperatures without doing what I did? Should I add more Saison yeast next time? Is Champagne yeast cleaner than California Ale yeast? And should I use it next time instead of California Ale yeast?

Back story: I usually brew IPAs and Stouts and now my goal is to brew all the recipes in Brewing Classic Styles. So far I've brewed a Saison and a Kolsch and the Kolsch got contaminated and turned into a Berliner Weiss and my Saison turned into a Belgian Ale. So, far I'm either 0 for 2 or i guess 2 for 2 depending on your tastes...
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Offline denny

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 08:41:14 PM »
The saison stall you experienced is because of CO2 present.  Either the pressure or the toxicity if the CO2 itself stalls fermentation.  The easy answer it to ferment without an airlock to relieve the presser and release the CO2. 

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-18-saison-under-pressure

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/guide-saisons-and-saison-yeasts
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 03:33:04 PM »
Saison is a Belgian beer but I understand by "Belgian" you mean the Trappist/abbey styles.

The yeast isolated from Dupont Saison Vieille (3724/565) is notoriously finicky and likes to stall--as you've experienced. Basically any other saison yeast on the market will give you an easier fermentation. Not necessarily better flavor than 3724/565 but none stall like it. 3711 is ubiquitous among American saisons because it's virtually foolproof.

Personally I would treat the stall by changing fermentation conditions rather than add more yeast but that's not as easily done after the fact. You could have added a different saison yeast at those temperatures or added a clean ale strain after bringing the temperature down into the appropriate range for that yeast.
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Offline denny

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 03:34:26 PM »
Saison is a Belgian beer but I understand by "Belgian" you mean the Trappist/abbey styles.

The yeast isolated from Dupont Saison Vieille (3724/565) is notoriously finicky and likes to stall--as you've experienced. Basically any other saison yeast on the market will give you an easier fermentation. Not necessarily better flavor than 3724/565 but none stall like it. 3711 is ubiquitous among American saisons because it's virtually foolproof.

Personally I would treat the stall by changing fermentation conditions rather than add more yeast but that's not as easily done after the fact. You could have added a different saison yeast at those temperatures or added a clean ale strain after bringing the temperature down into the appropriate range for that yeast.

Pretty sure saison is French.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 04:23:27 PM »
Saison is a Belgian beer but I understand by "Belgian" you mean the Trappist/abbey styles.

The yeast isolated from Dupont Saison Vieille (3724/565) is notoriously finicky and likes to stall--as you've experienced. Basically any other saison yeast on the market will give you an easier fermentation. Not necessarily better flavor than 3724/565 but none stall like it. 3711 is ubiquitous among American saisons because it's virtually foolproof.

Personally I would treat the stall by changing fermentation conditions rather than add more yeast but that's not as easily done after the fact. You could have added a different saison yeast at those temperatures or added a clean ale strain after bringing the temperature down into the appropriate range for that yeast.

Pretty sure saison is French.

It's kinda both.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 04:41:11 PM »
I've tasted plenty of Saisons to realize that it's way too Belgiany and yeasty to be a true Saison. But, it's a pretty good Belgiany tasting beer.



What about the taste does not make it saison-like?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2016, 05:01:09 PM »
I've tasted plenty of Saisons to realize that it's way too Belgiany and yeasty to be a true Saison. But, it's a pretty good Belgiany tasting beer.



What about the taste does not make it saison-like?



Yeah, Dupont is the gold standard for saison and it is from Belgium, so I'm confused as to how using one of their sub-strains wouldn't make a 'true saison'. I think people try the (mostly) vastly inferior domestic versions made with milder strains and assume that they're drinking the real deal. Having said that, temp profile makes a huge difference in the final product of a saison. And if the beer is yeasty as OP said, it probably needs to clear at cold temps a bit more to make a final judgement. 
Jon H.

Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2016, 04:17:05 PM »
Pretty sure saison is French.

Saison comes from Wallonia, which is in southern Belgium.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Supposed to be a Saison became a Belgian
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 09:42:11 PM »
Pretty sure saison is French.

Saison comes from Wallonia, which is in southern Belgium.

And the predominant language is...  French!
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