Author Topic: Flavor Hops Timing  (Read 1181 times)

Offline Patrique

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Flavor Hops Timing
« on: August 27, 2016, 12:19:04 AM »
My homebrew store guy suggested that the whirlpool actually destroys some key flavoring oils in the hops and suggested that flavoring hops be added for about 15 minutes before the boil and then taken out.  He's the only person from whom I've heard not to add flavoring hops during the whirlpool for this reason; is it true?  And if it is, wouldn't the oils you extracted before whirlpool get destroyed when you turned the heat up for the whirlpool anyway?  If the flavoring oils do get destroyed during whirlpool, then wouldn't a better way to preserve them be to add them after turning down the heat from the whirlpool?  I think this idea would be a "late hopping" idea but just short of a boil.

I read this and thought it was interesting on late hopping:

https://www.morebeer.com/category/secret-big-hop-aroma-flavor.html

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 12:39:25 AM »
I can't get my head around his thinking - boiling the hops is good and preserves the oils, where only steeping the hops after flame out destroys the oils? I can't answer scientifically, only anecdotally as a hophead - BS. Also, I think there's some confusion on whirlpool hopping here. Whirlpool hopping occurs after flameout, during cooling. Heat doesn't get turned UP at that point. I add whirlpool hops after cooling to 170F (or less), then steep for X amount of time, stirring frequently (as I don't use a pump), then finish cooling. The only way to know what you like best is to do what he does one time and then whirlpool hop the next time, and decide what you prefer. 
Jon H.

Offline Patrique

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2016, 01:47:44 AM »
Very helpful, thanks.

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2016, 05:26:48 AM »
I can't get my head around his thinking - boiling the hops is good and preserves the oils, where only steeping the hops after flame out destroys the oils? I can't answer scientifically, only anecdotally as a hophead - BS. Also, I think there's some confusion on whirlpool hopping here. Whirlpool hopping occurs after flameout, during cooling. Heat doesn't get turned UP at that point. I add whirlpool hops after cooling to 170F (or less), then steep for X amount of time, stirring frequently (as I don't use a pump), then finish cooling. The only way to know what you like best is to do what he does one time and then whirlpool hop the next time, and decide what you prefer.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 11:44:29 AM »
Sounds like he (homebrew store guy) is suggesting some type of modified FWH, and the science behind FWH is debatable at best (anecdotal evidence aside). During the WP you will certainly have alpha acid utilization (added bitterness) and some of the more volatile hop oils will go up with the steam. But with homebrewing you have the ability to start chilling immediately after flame out and during the WP if you have the right equipment so you can end the hop utilization almost immediately (one of the reasons I like an IC here, and think that plate chillers do homebrewers a disservice). In fact, you have lots of ways to play here. You could add your flavor hops at WP and WP for 10-20 minutes, then start you chilling process and get the wort under 160 degrees (the temp where the alpha acids are not able to be utilized as well) and add your aroma hops.

This is a vast playground and there are lots of tools you can use here including the suggestion from your homebrew store guy, though not sure about the "take them out" part.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 11:46:53 AM by majorvices »

Offline Patrique

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2016, 12:05:43 PM »
All sounds good -- sounds like there's a lot of latitude in timing.  So I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

Offline juggabrew303

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2016, 04:11:13 PM »
Just to clarify, do you guys account for any IBUs in the 170f WP/steep.  I use BS but it doesn't adjust WP temps


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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2016, 04:29:26 PM »
Just to clarify, do you guys account for any IBUs in the 170f WP/steep.  I use BS but it doesn't adjust WP temps


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No, I don't if the temp is 170F or under - the IBUs are there theoretically but I don't perceive them to any great extent. I often add 70IBU for 60 minutes for an IPA, then the whirlpool hops after cooling to 170F. Makes a great IPA.
Jon H.

Offline fmader

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2016, 01:26:35 AM »
We'll just say he's wrong lol.

Though I believe there is flavor components to <15 minute hops. I actually just tapped an IPA that I used a pump to whirlpool with for the first time. I added 10 ounces to an 11 gallon batch at 170ish degrees. Wow is all u have to say. It's super sticky. I've done whirlpools with spoons but nothing compares to a continuous 45 minute whirlpool. I think I had 2 oz at FW, 2 oz at 60, 4 oz at 5, 10 oz at whirlpool, and then 8 oz dry hop.
Frank

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2016, 06:04:14 PM »
We'll just say he's wrong lol.

Though I believe there is flavor components to <15 minute hops. I actually just tapped an IPA that I used a pump to whirlpool with for the first time. I added 10 ounces to an 11 gallon batch at 170ish degrees. Wow is all u have to say. It's super sticky. I've done whirlpools with spoons but nothing compares to a continuous 45 minute whirlpool. I think I had 2 oz at FW, 2 oz at 60, 4 oz at 5, 10 oz at whirlpool, and then 8 oz dry hop.

Now that's called usin' em' up!

Offline fmader

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2016, 06:14:54 PM »
We'll just say he's wrong lol.

Though I believe there is flavor components to <15 minute hops. I actually just tapped an IPA that I used a pump to whirlpool with for the first time. I added 10 ounces to an 11 gallon batch at 170ish degrees. Wow is all u have to say. It's super sticky. I've done whirlpools with spoons but nothing compares to a continuous 45 minute whirlpool. I think I had 2 oz at FW, 2 oz at 60, 4 oz at 5, 10 oz at whirlpool, and then 8 oz dry hop.

Now that's called usin' em' up!

Sorry just looked at my notes lol... 2 oz FW, 2 oz 60, 5 oz 5, 12 oz whirlpool, and 12 oz dry hop.  ;D
Frank

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 02:24:02 PM »
We'll just say he's wrong lol.

Though I believe there is flavor components to <15 minute hops. I actually just tapped an IPA that I used a pump to whirlpool with for the first time. I added 10 ounces to an 11 gallon batch at 170ish degrees. Wow is all u have to say. It's super sticky. I've done whirlpools with spoons but nothing compares to a continuous 45 minute whirlpool. I think I had 2 oz at FW, 2 oz at 60, 4 oz at 5, 10 oz at whirlpool, and then 8 oz dry hop.

Now that's called usin' em' up!

Sorry just looked at my notes lol... 2 oz FW, 2 oz 60, 5 oz 5, 12 oz whirlpool, and 12 oz dry hop.  ;D

Jiminy!  Time to start growing your own!

Offline zwiller

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Re: Flavor Hops Timing
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 03:30:21 PM »
Yep, stirring or even better pumping is the key to whirlpooling.  I don't think the science is exactly understood but there are studies proving it.  Might be a simple as keeping in suspension and contact area.  Most pros are pumping the dry hop now too.  I am regularly swirling a few times a day during my dry hop. 
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