[JJeffers09]

Edited based on suggestions - (Thanks guys)
~1.110-115 OG
~86-90 IBU
~12-13 SRM
~12%
82% 2 Row
8% Red Wheat
5% Munich
5% Crystal 40
Apollo, Ahtanum, Amarillo, and Simcoe

Question to the group.  Would replacing 8% of the 2 Row with Wheat be a terrible thing?  Would 10months be enough time?  All in the idea stage for an after turkey day partygyle - Barleywine (AASA Demeter) then something of an APA with some Vienna, victory and chocolate malt steeped into it after the fact with Ahtanum, Pacifica, and Perle (A.P.P.-elation sunrise)

[Stevie]

I'd go lower on the crystal. Either less of the 40 or switch to a lower colored crystal. You could also mix crystals to get a more layered flavor.

Wheat wouldn't be out of place, but I don't think you need it. Give it healthy yeast and it will be ready way before 10 months.

[denny]

My (ahem) award winning BW uses a healthy does of C60 and Munich along with the pale malt.  I think wheat might thin it a bit, which might not be bad if that's what you want.

[brewinhard]

My system efficiency sucks on big beers and if yours does too, you may consider adding some simple sugar to the recipe as well. This can help you get your OG up there and will keep the FG from being too high.

[fmader]

I think 10 months is fine. FWIW, I like about a pound of victory malt in my BW.

[JJeffers09]

so just modified from OG recipe.  10 months in the bottle is what I mean.

[Stevie]

I think it will be good. Lots of late hops to accommodate the fade. Don't save them all, enjoy the journey.

[HoosierBrew]

Lots of late hops to accommodate the fade. Don't save them all, enjoy the journey.

^^^.   Same thing for Bigfoot, for that matter - I love the slap of hops when it's fresh, love it a few months old, love it a few years old.

[JJeffers09]

Would decoction be inappropriate?  With such a rich maltiness, and a healthy dose of hops.  Balance leading toward more bitter than malty but have big body and mouthfeel.  I can't help but think that decoction, with a higher mash temp would not be a bad idea... question for me still lays in the how long should the boil be? 2 hrs?

[JJeffers09]

Lots of late hops to accommodate the fade. Don't save them all, enjoy the journey.

^^^.   Same thing for Bigfoot, for that matter - I love the slap of hops when it's fresh, love it a few months old, love it a few years old.

I need to try some bigfoot before I try and brew this beer.  I had my first American BW as a homebrew at a bottleshare recently and I need to take a crack at it.  I can see how it is hard to distinguish between Impy IPA and ABW or atleast the example I tried seemed to be an BIG IPA with a good malty backbone, but it was really sweet.  Probably because it was only 2 months old

[santoch]

The style guidelines do a pretty good job of describing the differences between Double IPA and Am. Barleywine.  BW is fuller and richer and sweeter.  IIPA is all about drinkability - lighter body, drier, etc.  They really are 2 different beers.

Overall Impression: An intensely hoppy, fairly strong pale ale without the big, rich, complex maltiness and residual sweetness and body of an American barleywine. Strongly hopped, but clean, dry, and lacking harshness. Drinkability is an important characteristic; this should not be a heavy, sipping beer.

Overall Impression: A well-hopped American interpretation of the richest and strongest of the English ales. The hop character should be evident throughout, but does not have to be unbalanced. The alcohol strength and hop bitterness often combine to leave a very long finish.

Full guidelines descriptions follow:

Overall Impression: An intensely hoppy, fairly strong pale ale without the big, rich, complex maltiness and residual sweetness and body of an American barleywine. Strongly hopped, but clean, dry, and lacking harshness. Drinkability is an important characteristic; this should not be a heavy, sipping beer.

Aroma: A prominent to intense hop aroma that typically showcases American or New World hop characteristics (citrus, floral, pine, resinous, spicy, tropical fruit, stone fruit, berry, melon, etc.). Most versions are dry hopped and can have an additional resinous or grassy aroma, although this is not absolutely required. Some clean malty sweetness may be found in the background. Fruitiness, either from esters or hops, may also be detected in some versions, although a neutral fermentation character is typical. Some alcohol can usually be noted, but it should not have a “hot” character.

Appearance: Color ranges from golden to light orange-copper; most modern versions are fairly pale. Good clarity, although unfiltered dry-hopped versions may be a bit hazy. Moderate-sized, persistent, white to off-white head.

Flavor: Hop flavor is strong and complex, and can reflect the characteristics of modern American or New World hop varieties (citrus, floral, pine, resinous, spicy, tropical fruit, stone fruit, berry, melon, etc.). High to absurdly high hop bitterness. Low to medium malt flavor, generally clean and grainy-malty although low levels of caramel or toasty flavors are acceptable. Low to medium fruitiness is acceptable but not required. A long, lingering bitterness is usually present in the aftertaste but should not be harsh. Dry to medium-dry finish; should not finish sweet or heavy. A light, clean, smooth alcohol flavor is not a fault. Oak is inappropriate in this style. May be slightly sulfury, but most examples do not exhibit this character.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body, with a smooth texture. Medium to medium-high carbonation. No harsh hop-derived astringency. Restrained, smooth alcohol warming acceptable.

Comments: A showcase for hops, yet remaining quite drinkable. The adjective “double" is arbitrary and simply implies a stronger version of an IPA; “imperial,” “extra,” “extreme,” or any other variety of adjectives would be equally valid, although the modern American market seems to have now coalesced around the “double” term.

History: An American craft beer innovation first developed in the mid-late 1990s reflecting the trend of American craft brewers “pushing the envelope” to satisfy the need of hop aficionados for increasingly intense products. Became more mainstream and popular throughout the 2000s, and inspired additional IPA creativity.

Characteristic Ingredients: Clean 2-row malt is typical as a base grain; an excessively complex grist can be distracting. Crystal-type malts often muddy the hop flavors, and are generally considered undesirable in significant quantities. Sugar or other highly fermentable adjuncts are often used to increase attenuation, as are lower-temperature mash rests. Can use a complex variety of hops, typically American or New World, often with cutting-edge profiles providing distinctive differences. Modern hops with unusual characteristics are not out of style. American yeast that can give a clean or slightly fruity profile.

Style Comparison: Bigger than either an English or American IPA in both alcohol strength and overall hop level (bittering and finish). Less malty, lower body, less rich and a greater overall hop intensity than an American Barleywine. Typically not as high in gravity/alcohol as a barleywine, since high alcohol and malt tend to limit drinkability.

Vital Statistics:   OG:   1.065 – 1.085
IBUs:   60 – 120   FG:   1.008 – 1.018
SRM:   6 – 14   ABV:   7.5 – 10.0%

Commercial Examples: Avery Maharaja, Fat Heads Hop Juju, Firestone Walker Double Jack, Port Brewing Hop 15, Russian River Pliny the Elder, Stone Ruination IPA, Three Floyds Dreadnaught

Tags: very-high-strength, pale-color, top-fermented, north-america, craft-style, ipa-family, bitter, hoppy

Overall Impression: A well-hopped American interpretation of the richest and strongest of the English ales. The hop character should be evident throughout, but does not have to be unbalanced. The alcohol strength and hop bitterness often combine to leave a very long finish.

Aroma: Hop character moderate to assertive and often showcases citrusy, fruity, or resiny New World varieties (although other varieties, such as floral, earthy or spicy English varieties or a blend of varieties, may be used). Rich maltiness, with a character that may be sweet, caramelly, bready, or fairly neutral. Low to moderately-strong fruity esters and alcohol aromatics. However, the intensity of aromatics often subsides with age. Hops tend to be nearly equal to malt in the aroma, with alcohol and esters far behind.

Appearance: Color may range from light amber to medium copper; may rarely be as dark as light brown. Often has ruby highlights. Moderately-low to large off-white to light tan head; may have low head retention. May be cloudy with chill haze at cooler temperatures, but generally clears to good to brilliant clarity as it warms. The color may appear to have great depth, as if viewed through a thick glass lens. High alcohol and viscosity may be visible in “legs” when beer is swirled in a glass.

Flavor: Strong, rich malt flavor with a noticeable hop flavor and bitterness in the balance. Moderately-low to moderately-high malty sweetness on the palate, although the finish may be somewhat sweet to quite dry (depending on aging). Hop bitterness may range from moderately strong to aggressive. While strongly malty, the balance should always seem bitter. Moderate to high hop flavor (any variety, but often showing a range of New World hop characteristics). Low to moderate fruity esters. Noticeable alcohol presence, but well-integrated. Flavors will smooth out and decline over time, but any oxidized character should be muted (and generally be masked by the hop character). May have some bready or caramelly malt flavors, but these should not be high; roasted or burnt malt flavors are inappropriate.

Mouthfeel: Full-bodied and chewy, with a velvety, luscious texture (although the body may decline with long conditioning). Alcohol warmth should be noticeable but smooth. Should not be syrupy and under-attenuated. Carbonation may be low to moderate, depending on age and conditioning.

Comments: Sometimes known as “Barley Wine” or “Barleywine style ale” (the latter due to legal requirements, not brewery preference).

History: Usually the strongest ale offered by a brewery, often associated with the winter or holiday season and vintage-dated. As with many American craft beer styles, derived from English examples but using American ingredients and featuring a much more forward hop profile. One of the first American craft beer versions was Anchor Old Foghorn, first brewed in 1975. Sierra Nevada Bigfoot, first brewed in 1983, set the standard for the hop-forward style of today. The story goes that when Sierra Nevada first sent Bigfoot out for lab analysis, the lab called and said, “your barleywine is too bitter” – to which Sierra Nevada replied, “thank you.”

Characteristic Ingredients: Well-modified pale malt should form the backbone of the grist. Some specialty or character malts may be used. Dark malts should be used with great restraint, if at all, as most of the color arises from a lengthy boil. New World hops are common, although any varieties can be used in quantity. Generally uses an attenuative American ale yeast.

Style Comparison: The American version of the Barleywine tends to have a greater emphasis on hop bitterness, flavor and aroma than the English Barleywine, and often features American hop varieties. Typically paler than the darker English Barleywines (and lacking in the deeper malt flavors) but darker than the golden English Barleywines. Differs from a Double IPA in that the hops are not extreme, the malt is more forward, and the body is fuller and often richer. An American Barleywine typically has more residual sweetness than a Double IPA, which affects the overall drinkability (sipping vs. drinking).

Vital Statistics:   OG:   1.080 – 1.120
IBUs:   50 – 100   FG:   1.016 – 1.030
SRM:   10 – 19   ABV:   8.0 – 12.0%

Commercial Examples: Avery Hog Heaven Barleywine, Anchor Old Foghorn, Great Divide Old Ruffian, Rogue Old Crustacean, Sierra Nevada Bigfoot, Victory Old Horizontal

Tags: very-high-strength, amber-color, top-fermented, north-america, craft-style, strong-ale-family, bitter, hoppy

[JJeffers09]

Yeah I caught that, I was just saying the one I tried it was harder to distinguish because it was young, and had a monster hop aroma.  It also had rye and spicy dank hops.  I appreciate the BJCP copy and paste though

[HoosierBrew]

Yeah I caught that, I was just saying the one I tried it was harder to distinguish because it was young, and had a monster hop aroma. 

Yeah, a young American barleywine should have a ton of hop character, not unlike a IIPA. But the full body and malty sweetness should be there for the AB, not for the IIPA. Except for many of the poorly made IIPAs out there where the brewer doesn't get it, because his IIPA is sweet and very full bodied like an AB. There need to be more IIPAs like Dirt Wolf (or mine).

[JJeffers09]

Target pH?

[HoosierBrew]

Target pH?

5.4 for hoppy beers always works great for me.